Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

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Mark_Cangila
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 pm UTC

Sorry! I got sick and I didn't have a chance to check. Reading the thread.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:51 pm UTC

I'm also not sure how I feel about the vanilla claim. I could see someone submitting it though.
For now, pending further info:
Vote: MOA

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:13 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:Random voting sounds like a great shield to hide behind if you're scum. Blame the dice; odds are it will be a vote for town!
But it also needs to be prepared as an excuse to use by being random in previous games. So if you want to use the gambit, you need to use it while you're town too.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think people would (should?) believe in "random" if there isn't a history of it.
Ahh, but there's the wrinkle. There is a history of general random voting at the start of the game. Although it's more like "arbitrary" voting not "random". Using dice defeats the purpose. But as you say, scum will have hidden motivations. Which is why the second traditional stage is analyzing the RVS and making real votes.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:43 pm UTC

wam wrote:@ laser why?

Odd thing to say given how often we lynch vicarin for the same thing!

MasterOfAll wrote:@LaserGuy: I am at least willing to consider your reasoning for a D1 mass claim. So, what are you thinking everyone should claim (Rolename and ability?) and why do that here on D1?


There's a couple reasons for this...

I don't really care about rolenames specifically, but was thinking about abilities.

In this setup has a rather unique advantage: In a three man scum team, scum already, in principle, could know as many as six of the available roles (the three they submitted plus the three they received, assuming no overlap). It's going to be much easier than normal for them to interpret night results and figure out who the strongest Town PRs will be. Sharing everything neutralizes that advantage.

Secondly, this setup is much more likely than average to be breakable using powers since the mods aren't explicitly designing against it. Even if we can't outright break the setup, by mass claiming we can force scum to choose targets that are suboptimal for their abilities since they need to justify every action immediately rather than retrospectively.


People's commentary on this is also useful.
-MoA and wam seemed most willing to engage me on this, which feels townie. I also suspect the vanilla claim is Town.
-jimbob!Sabrar and bessie didn't care about the proposal specifically but used it to try to sort me, which also feels townie.
-Madge missing this entirely is suspicious because I expected her to be quite interested in the idea. Feels scummy.
-BoomFrog not using this to try to sort me is a little suspicions.
-moody, mpolo, and plytho all responded in safe ways that are kind of nullish. Mark didn't note this at all, which I think is nullish for him as well.
-Still thinking about SuicideJunkie.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:53 pm UTC

Vote: Madge

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:04 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:I don't think early claims are appreciated, but something more vague for flavour perhaps? Probably still not helpful to town.

Voting hijinks will upset me. Possibly unduly so. But if someone does that unvote/revote thing so they can vote for someone they don't actually want lynched... That'll be a double barrelled FoS from me.

I don't like how MoA is picking on the new guy for an easy vote. Smells scummy to me.


Just for clarity's sake based on the discussion above: I don't think that individual players should claim D1 unless their power is extremely negative utility (e.g. a paranoid gun owner who kills anyone that targets them). Leaking bits of information about different powers is probably not beneficial. But I do think that having everyone claim might be a valid strategy though.

MasterOfAll wrote:@Everyone who is familiar with the mods: How do you think they went about setting up the game? Fixing up our role submissions a bit, deciding on town-scum-indy balance, then just randomly assigning each role and alignment? Or would they be more likely to manually select things?


In this sort of setup, normally I would expect the players to be assigned their alignments first, then roles randomly distributed without concern for how playable they are as a given alignment (possibly with a few tweaks). That's how I did it when I modded Secret Santa last year, at least.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby plytho » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:53 pm UTC

wam wrote:Agree with Bessie 9-3 is standard for 12 players but given the mods would they have gone with standard?
I do expect a pretty standard setup when we’re dealing with potentially wild powers.

SuicideJunkie wrote:
plytho wrote:Why did you consider if claims would be appreciated instead of if they're good for town?
That's almost the same thing in my mind.
I was thinking more in general terms that early claims are poo-poohed across many games, because they are generally bad for town.

This is troubling. They’re definitely not the same thing. Doing things because they are appreciated is scummy and it doesn’t help town. Town should be willing to go against the grain without caring if what they say is appreciated or not as long as they believe they’re helping town.
Re: plytho:
Not much to go on yet. I'm confused why "tying lurkiness to scumminess" is considered a bad thing. That's well known meta isn't it? Excusing yourself from lurk-scuminess could be legit or scummy in itself. MoA hasn't played in ages, so it could be legit.
It’s not a bad thing per se, but it could be a setup by scum MoA knowing he’ll be more active this game. By tying his lurkiness to scummines he could be trying to link active MoA to townie MoA.


LaserGuy, I thought you were mocking my own call for an early mass claim in B99. I’m surprised you’re serious(ly wrong). You’re making a lot of assumptions.
LaserGuy wrote:In this setup has a rather unique advantage: In a three man scum team, scum already, in principle, could know as many as six of the available roles (the three they submitted plus the three they received, assuming no overlap). It's going to be much easier than normal for them to interpret night results and figure out who the strongest Town PRs will be. Sharing everything neutralizes that advantage.
It’s not necessarily true that it’s going to be much easier for scum to interpret night results and find the strongest town PR’s. That depends a lot on the specific powers involved. Usually results aren’t public, so at the start of D2 scum might not know anything about town powers.
In fact, because scum know so much about up to six powers, we should be more hesitant to claim. In a regular game town might hide an aspect of their claim to mislead scum, but here scum know all the details of their submitted powers so the knowledge helps them more. The advantage of a mass claim is on the scum side.

LaserGuy wrote:Secondly, this setup is much more likely than average to be breakable using powers since the mods aren't explicitly designing against it. Even if we can't outright break the setup, by mass claiming we can force scum to choose targets that are suboptimal for their abilities since they need to justify every action immediately rather than retrospectively.
I’d put setup breakability at somewhat higher than usual but not that much. That’s part of the balancing that jim and dim did for this game. Also, breaking the game D1 is a long shot. The wacky powers might make the game breakable at a later stage but making all powers public helps scum avoid that point. Having scum pick suboptimal targets does not help town enough to compensate for giving scum all the info.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby mpolo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:06 pm UTC

plytho wrote:It’s not necessarily true that it’s going to be much easier for scum to interpret night results and find the strongest town PR’s. That depends a lot on the specific powers involved. Usually results aren’t public, so at the start of D2 scum might not know anything about town powers.
In fact, because scum know so much about up to six powers, we should be more hesitant to claim. In a regular game town might hide an aspect of their claim to mislead scum, but here scum know all the details of their submitted powers so the knowledge helps them more. The advantage of a mass claim is on the scum side.


Also, no one knows how much (or how little) the mods were forced to nerf our suggestions to make them fit with the game/the theme/their whims.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby moody7277 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:17 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:I hope that isn't leading to a joke about considering me worth half a player and therefore scum. That would just be mean.


Half scum in this case means someone with interests against town's, but not coordinating with the scum team. Sabrar and plytho have recently had roles that fell in this category. There was also some discussion about the balance of 2 vs 3 scum in games of this size in GoJoe.

LaserGuy's explanation has good plausibility behind it, and I particularly like how he figured how the whole role submission angle plays out. My knee-jerk reaction was the usual rolefishing=bad paradigm, but I'm getting a more townie vibe on him.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:19 pm UTC

plytho wrote:This is troubling. They’re definitely not the same thing. Doing things because they are appreciated is scummy and it doesn’t help town. Town should be willing to go against the grain without caring if what they say is appreciated or not as long as they believe they’re helping town.

Am I assuming too much rationality or using the wrong word? Town should be happy about a ploy if it helps town win in the end. Perhaps not at the time, or if there is a personal problem with it. But even if is as big as your own death that leads to you winning, would that not be appreciated?
Doing something as long as you believe it is helping should be tempered by the fact that if the people on your team won't like you doing it... maybe it isn't actually helping.

plytho wrote:It’s not a bad thing per se, but it could be a setup by scum MoA knowing he’ll be more active this game. By tying his lurkiness to scummines he could be trying to link active MoA to townie MoA.

Would people be fooled by that reversal? I'd hope not. Given more activity, there would be real posts to investigate.
Lurkiness is scummy, but activity isn't towniness.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby plytho » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:36 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:Am I assuming too much rationality or using the wrong word? Town should be happy about a ploy if it helps town win in the end. Perhaps not at the time, or if there is a personal problem with it. But even if is as big as your own death that leads to you winning, would that not be appreciated?
Doing something as long as you believe it is helping should be tempered by the fact that if the people on your team won't like you doing it... maybe it isn't actually helping.
The whole point of this game is that you don't know who's on your team (if you're town). So you can't just rely on the general 'public opinion' to guide you because scum is influencing that opinion against town's best interests.
I think you are assuming too much rationality. What's good or bad for town isn't always that clear cut.

SuicideJunkie wrote:
plytho wrote:It’s not a bad thing per se, but it could be a setup by scum MoA knowing he’ll be more active this game. By tying his lurkiness to scummines he could be trying to link active MoA to townie MoA.

Would people be fooled by that reversal? I'd hope not. Given more activity, there would be real posts to investigate.
Lurkiness is scummy, but activity isn't towniness.
Scum and town reads aren't that black and white. People won't ignore the content of MoA's posts and call him townie for activity alone. But if those other posts don't really help them to sort MoA they might be fooled by the reversal and pick someone else to vote instead.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Madge » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:39 pm UTC

mpolo!! How are you scum reading me for two posts none of which contained any game relevant content because did i mention it's D1 and you KNOW how i feel about d1!!!!!!

...oh, wait. i get it.

@Laserguy: Honestly the idea of claiming so early was so off the wall I didn't think it worthy of my attention especially because I was at work and fuckin' christmas music was being played by my boss who doesn't let me play Billy Joel (aka nature's perfect musician) on the work road trips. (He says it's something about me only listening to artists whose names begin with B, but I think he's just a sadist).

RE: claiming rolenames - this is a LESS crazy idea but I still don't like it. I suspect submitted names have been changed, so even if I claim my name is Sir Jimbob, that's not going to help because the person who submitted the Sir Jimbob role called it the Flavouriser or something. So claiming names won't even work on a meta level, though my name does somewhat hint at my power, so it'd help in that regard I guess.

Thanks for pointing out the should-have-been-obvious-to-me-but-wasn't fact that scum will know a huge number of roles between them. This will help with strategic decisions.

I think the mods would have modified the powers on a continuum for "left it in with flavour mods" to "used it as inspiration to write a new role" - I know that's the continuum me and (... was it SDK?) ran on when we modded secret santa a few years ago.

------
non game related (bessie please don't read because you'll find a way to scumread me for the below :lol: )

@plytho what happened to your avatar?

@junkie didn't you used to have an avatar?

is my switching to firefox (might switch back - its printing function is much worse than chrome's) why you two don't have avatars because i remember you both used to, or did you both decide to remove them?
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby plytho » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:58 pm UTC

I think claiming rolenames is probably slightly crazier than full claiming as scum have the opportunity to guess full powers of those max 3 people while town cannot.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:00 pm UTC

Madge wrote:RE: claiming rolenames - this is a LESS crazy idea but I still don't like it. I suspect submitted names have been changed, so even if I claim my name is Sir Jimbob, that's not going to help because the person who submitted the Sir Jimbob role called it the Flavouriser or something. So claiming names won't even work on a meta level, though my name does somewhat hint at my power, so it'd help in that regard I guess.


I think claiming rolenames is a very bad idea actually. If the mods have kept the rolenames the same, then anyone who happens to have one of the powers that scum submitted will have outed themselves without providing any useful information to Town. I think it's really got to be all or nothing with claims.

plytho wrote:It’s not necessarily true that it’s going to be much easier for scum to interpret night results and find the strongest town PR’s. That depends a lot on the specific powers involved. Usually results aren’t public, so at the start of D2 scum might not know anything about town powers.
In fact, because scum know so much about up to six powers, we should be more hesitant to claim. In a regular game town might hide an aspect of their claim to mislead scum, but here scum know all the details of their submitted powers so the knowledge helps them more. The advantage of a mass claim is on the scum side.


This is something that I was mulling over after modding Secret Santa last year... I think in that particular game, Town would have been in a much stronger position from an early mass claim given the powers that were available. As it was, Town basically didn't get any useful night results for the entire game because of the awkward ways that their powers interacted when nobody knew what was going on (also, in that game the person with the strongest powers turned out to be scum!bessie, so if there was a mass claim D1 it would have been very suspicious for her to have survived till the endgame).

[ninja by plytho]

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby MasterOfAll » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:32 pm UTC

Regarding claiming abilities, I don't think it is the worst idea, but my opinion is that it would be better to wait for later in the game for that. I don't like the idea of 'trying to break the game' as that seems a lot less fun than playing the game. And while scum know up to 3 of the roles of non-scum, it might be only 2 or even 1 or hilariously 0. And then they still have to try to figure out which of us has *that* role they submitted in order to target us, and I really doubt that the flavor is going to help them with that (much more likely the things we say would).

Although the point about last year's scum!bessie having strongest powers and thus would have stood out for not being NK'd is interesting, I think there is a better chance that the strongest powers ended up with town (since we outnumber them) and then the mass claim just helps scum to identify targets. This, of course, assumes that we could even agree on what abilities scum would be most scared of, which isn't a discussion I would expect us to ever have until endgame because who wants to help scum not only by knowing all the abilities, but also the ramifications of how they interact and thus who is most dangerous. tl;dr: I still think scum benefits more than town from an early mass claim.

But, as a way to give people something to talk about, congrats to LaserGuy on bringing up a mass roleclaim and then even making town/scum reads from it.


Regarding my vanilla claim, of course it's a fake claim. I did not do it for any particular purpose, but rather, I just thought it would be amusing to claim to be vanilla when we clearly all got some sort of ability gifted to us, because, you know, that's how Secret Santa works.

Still, maybe others will be able to find something useful in the responses to my claim, so I wasn't quite ready to retract my claim earlier. But, I wouldn't want it to be a distraction, so . . . yeah, it was a big, fat lie.

In fact, my role is amazing. I am super excited to make use of these interesting and incredibly powerful abilities, and scum should definitely leave me alone at night because I would be very sad if I got knocked out of this game early.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:23 am UTC

Town:
LaserGuy - The plan is more plausible then I expected. I think I disagree still but coming from a townie place.
SuicideJunkie - Easy Breezy
MoA - Tadpole

Madge - Seems to fit expectations
plytho - Not wrong
mpolo - Standard
Mark_Cangila - As expected
wam - Too quiet, but it's early
moody - Hmm. I'll say later. Needs more observation.
bessie - Overly concerned
Sabrar - I did not expect this to be a real vote.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:37 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:- moody gets a townie-point for the joke
Underserved. moody easily jokes as scum.

- BoomFrog opens in classic BF-style, it gets him half of a townie-point
...
- I'm taking away BoomFrog's half-point, being natural but self-aware at the same-time feels unlikely.
Half a town point seems fair but the later clarification should not have been new information for you and so should not have adjusted your opinion. I'm always self aware while trying to stay natural and I discussed this last game with Zen.

- Laserguy wanting mass-claim is weird. Could be he has a role-related power/win-con (though I would expect him to proceed more carefully in that situation). His opening contribution is also lack-luster and not what I expected from him. 1 scum-point for now.
Seems wrong, though if this was our only disagreement I'd let it slide.

- liking plytho's second post except where he so easily reads the vanilla claim from MasterOfAll as a joke.
Why? plytho is savvy enough to see the obvious joke there...

- wam's first post is very interesting if he's not just fooling around. Also it is too short by a mile, especially considering that PS. +1 scum- :roll: point as a first impression.
Short is typical wam, and the P.S. about post length is clearly just about poetry slam mafia.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:24 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
- liking plytho's second post except where he so easily reads the vanilla claim from MasterOfAll as a joke.
Why? plytho is savvy enough to see the obvious joke there...
Seriously. Even I understood that one. Anyone who didn't? I'm not mad, just disappointed.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:54 am UTC

plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:I don’t participate in RVS, but I don’t like to cut it off on page 1 and deprive everyone else of their fun.

So you want to vote someone seriously, but are waiting for page 2 to do so?
Slight poke at Madge in response to her post (refer also to attached picture of Offended BessieDog), but with a touch of bessie-seriousness. I forgot that the previous game had regressed to the point where I needed to insert the [/sarcasm] tag on all my snarky remarks. [/not sarcasm]

wam wrote:vote master of all

only one not to write confirm.

Fos Bessie for not calling this out. Probably scum together.
FoS wam.
1. For not acknowledging that you should have the same self-awareness as BoomFrog in this post.
2. For pretending not to understand what was acceptable about everyone’s confirmation posts.
3. For pretending not to see how MoA’s confirmation post differs from yours in B99, and why I scum read you for it (see below my response to Sabrar).

Sabrar wrote:- moody gets a townie-point for the joke (bessie's FoS for the same is understandable but in my opinion misguided, she does not consider moody's long history of stating how she is always the most townie person)
Untrue and you know it. Example, hmmm, how about let’s use Secret Santa 2017:
bessie wrote:
moody7277 wrote: -Town-
bessie-no surprise here
And what did I do to deserve this? Oh, yeah, I signed up for the game. :roll:


Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Confirmation posts: All acceptable.
This is a bit strange coming from bessie who found wam suspicious in Halloween because of non-standard conf-post. I want to put this aside because of our discussion in Texas but then again she was scum there so might be some unconscious thing at work here.
FoS Sabrar for pretending to misunderstand what the deal is with me and confirmation posts. I’ve discussed this in detail in at least a half dozen games. Example, hey, I just happen to have a summary of my recent confirmation post analysis history here (note, hey another bessie-scum game!). Open the spoiler to find some explanation as to why I do confirmation post analysis, and links to previous games where I discusses why I do confirmation post analysis. Everyone should totally read it. Sabrar must remember it, it was integral to his reasons for scum reading me and getting me lynched.

Quick summary for the newbies: It’s not the confirmation post content in itself I find objectionable. What I object to is the attitude that anything that is posted in the confirmation post doesn’t count because “we’re not really playing yet” (see my write up in the linked post on SDK in The Dark Tower). Everything posted in the thread (with the exception of RL information and some spoilers) is game content and is fair game for analysis. You don’t get to pick and choose what content you want considered and analyzed. This is one reason you can’t edit your posts, so you can’t edit out scummy slips.

Re: wam’s confirmation post in B99. My analysis on why it was scummy here:
bessie wrote:Not liking wam's confirmation post, to me it feels like a pre excuse for lurking.
(Compare also to Mark’s confirmation post from the same game which I found acceptable.) wam’s B99 conf post/opening was similar to Madge’s in this game. They both pre-set an excuse for poor content. And I FoS’d them both for it.

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Soooo, your deliberately worded your confirmation post in such a way to ensure that it did not appear suspicious to me? Why did you feel the need to be deliberate? FoS BoomFrog.
This is double-standard, bessie did the same by conforming her opening analysis to my 'expectations'.
Looking at the post overall it looks to be standard bessie but easily replicated from scum!pov. Unfortunately bessie's town-percent is nowhere near the standard neighborhood.
Sabrar wrote:- bessie drawing renewed attention to the double-standard (actually this might earn her some townie-points, I think scum!her would have realized this earlier. Hmmmm, need more data).
No double standard. Like BoomFrog, I am self aware that I tailored my post to your expectations, and like BoomFrog, I acknowledged it. Unlike wam, who did not. In light of this analysis, I find this comment quite interesting:
Sabrar wrote: - wam's first post is very interesting if he's not just fooling around. Also it is too short by a mile, especially considering that PS. +1 scum-point as a first impression.


Sabrar wrote: @bessie: why 9-3?
1. Three seems like the right number of non-town.
2. My thought at the time was that the nature of Secret Santa isn’t conducive to having an indie.
3. My read of the setup (sorry moody I’m gaming the game) is that chat is night chat, which would balance the larger scum team.
4. Proprietary mod read (sorry again moody for gaming the mod).

MasterOfAll wrote:@Everyone who is familiar with the mods: How do you think they went about setting up the game? Fixing up our role submissions a bit, deciding on town-scum-indy balance, then just randomly assigning each role and alignment? Or would they be more likely to manually select things?
See the opening post:
Sir jimModmacdoodle wrote:8. The flavor and abilities of submitted roles may have been altered at the mods' discretion. Players will not be informed if their role has been changed from its original conception.

9. No information will be revealed about how the roles were distributed or balanced. If you submitted a role with a suggested alignment, it may or may not be that alignment.
Sir jimModmacdoodle wrote:7. We will do our best to keep the roles that players submit intact, but we reserve the right to alter the roles as necessary to make the game fun for everyone.

So because I have a history of asking this anyway:

Were alignments randomly assigned to players?

SuicideJunkie wrote:Re: Bessie:
Bessie does have that meta of Auto-Town. I'm not sure how much the avatar has to do with it, and how much is the small sample set of heroism and martyrdom from past games I saw. Fuzzier neutral than most? Gut towniness feel is probably false but that obviously doesn't mean scum either.
If you’ve read some previous games, you must be familiar with my meta and picked up on the joke (ask if you want this explained). Re the avatar, the subject in the picture was a mind control expert. You don’t know how many times I awoke from a trance in my kitchen, holding a cookie box, with no memory of how or why I was there.

@LaserGuy, re this post, going by memory, I know it was definitely an advantage in SS2017 to scum knowing moody’s power, but I’m not sure I agree with this:
LaserGuy wrote:Even if we can't outright break the setup, by mass claiming we can force scum to choose targets that are suboptimal for their abilities since they need to justify every action immediately rather than retrospectively.
If anything, knowing town’s powers allowed us to choose our targets optimally, they were just suboptimal targets because we had to work around moody. Also I can confirm that we were able to determine easily who had the power I submitted. Would need to reread to see if I agree that I had the strongest power. Pre-post edit: see also this post, not sure I agree, will reread SS2017 and offer more opinions on this later if requested.

plytho wrote: The advantage of a mass claim is on the scum side.
This is my current feeling also. Hey, I agree with plytho!

Madge wrote:mpolo!! How are you scum reading me for two posts none of which contained any game relevant content because did i mention it's D1 and you KNOW how i feel about d1!!!!!!
You don’t get to decide what in your content is relevant and what doesn’t count; it is all fair game for analysis (see above). However. . .
Madge wrote:non game related (bessie please don't read because you'll find a way to scumread me for the below :lol: )
I promise any scum read I might make of you will not be based on any of the content in that post which is below that line.


Vote: Sabrar

To do list: Determine if his partner is wam or Madge.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:04 am UTC

madge wrote:@junkie didn't you used to have an avatar?

I don't think I've ever had one on this forum, but you might have seen me elsewhere?
I should get around to that. New year's resolution to do it perhaps.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby mpolo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:38 am UTC

On plytho, I see "User Avatar" as linked text, but see no avatar. I can click through and see his page, also without avatar.

SuicideJunkie appears (as he just said) to not have an avatar at all. If you get a little bit of time to add one, it could be helpful to us when we are scanning the thread for what you said.

I think I am going to concur that LaserGuy is coming from a townie place with his claim suggestion, but at the same time, I don't think the plan benefits town as much as he might hope. It would force scum who have scummy powers to commit to a false claim very early, though.

I don't think that my rolename would help either side — the connection to my power is pretty tenuous. Unless somebody really submitted it with this name, in which case, that person would know who I am, obviously. My gut feeling is that the rolenames were all medievalified so that they don't match what was sent in.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:27 am UTC

bessie wrote:Were alignments randomly assigned to players?
Yes.
BlitzGirl the Primordial
matthewglen wrote:Cueball looks concerned.

Image

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:45 am UTC

So was just making up the confirmation post analysis as I'm not Bessie. I think Bessie reaction was natural. As far as I can see MOA ignoredti completely which is odd and more.likely to be scum moa.

Lasers post makes the claim make more sense but I disagree with trying to break the game this early on principle.

Sabrar seems off this game going to 're read and we if I can put my finger on what.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:31 pm UTC

Ok so reading back through.

1 for sabrar content is down.

2 doesn't engage with this post from Bessie. viewtopic.php?f=53&t=125666#p4416617

3 I agree with booms points here viewtopic.php?f=53&t=125666&start=40#p4416889

So unvote [/b
[b]vote sabrar
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:10 pm UTC

I made a spreadsheet and did a few passes over the thread to make numbers. I included myself to be fair. Pertinence & illustriousness is proportional to loquaciousness for letter grades since densities are easier to see.
Absolute values are used in the subtotals, which have an average forced to zero. (R) indicates randovote which is given half-credit.
*Significant rounding has occurred. Data has been filtered through a first-time player and may not be suitable for humans. Consult your local salt mine before consuming this data.

Code: Select all

Name               Bessie    SJ    Plytho   Laserguy    Boomfrog   Wam     Mpolo     MoA      Madge     Moody   Sabrar    Mark
Loquaciousness       A+       A      A         B          C         C-      B         A         C         D        F       F   
Pertinence           C        A      A         B          A         A       C         C         C         A        A+      A       
Illustriousness      C        C      C         B          A         B       D         D         D         A        F       F       

SubTotal Score      2.3      2.0    1.8       1.4        0.6      -0.7     0.0       0.5      -0.7      -1.6     -2.8    -2.9
Vote                Sab      ---   Wam(R)  Sab->Madge   Sab(R)   MoA->Sab  ---      SJ(R)      ---    Bessie(R)   ---     MoA
Vote Modifier       1.4       -     0.2       0.4        0.7       1.4      -       -0.5        -       -0.6     -1.8    -0.2
Final Score         3.7      2.0    2.0       1.8        1.3       0.7     0.0       0.0      -0.7      -2.2     -2.8    -3.1

Is it really possible for Bessie to be ~185% townie? That aura is amazing. :P

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:31 pm UTC

Ok, I’m not sure how to get Sabrar to post, but if this is some lame posting restriction I’m going to be really super pissed off disappointed in at least three people.

wam wrote:So was just making up the confirmation post analysis as I'm not Bessie. I think Bessie reaction was natural. As far as I can see MOA ignoredti completely which is odd and more.likely to be scum moa.
Can you explain your reasoning on MoA?

SuicideJunkie wrote: Is it really possible for Bessie to be ~185% townie? That aura is amazing.
It was up until last year’s Secret Santa game. I’m only at 50% over the past year. :P

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:56 pm UTC

@SJ: Could you do let's say... MoA's posts and show how you got your evaluation? Your table isn't much help if we don't know what you're doing.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:13 pm UTC

wam wrote:Ok so reading back through.

1 for sabrar content is down.

2 doesn't engage with this post from Bessie. viewtopic.php?f=53&t=125666#p4416617

3 I agree with booms points here viewtopic.php?f=53&t=125666&start=40#p4416889

So unvote [/b
[b]vote sabrar


How do you get that Sabrar didn't engage with bessie? Did you miss the spoiler in his post that was the bulk of his analysis where he spends considerable time on that post?

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:32 pm UTC

Vote: wam

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:34 pm UTC

bessie wrote:Ok, I’m not sure how to get Sabrar to post, but if this is some lame posting restriction I’m going to be really super pissed off disappointed in at least three people.

Something is definitely up. It is extremely different then his usual style. I expect him to address this issue in his next post.

@Sabrar: If it's a posting restriction you don't have to reveal all the details if you think that's best. Also if you don't post in the next 24 hours I'll assume that is confirmation that it is a posting restriction.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Madge » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:38 pm UTC

Yeah I think at this point on stats alone I should have more of a townie aura than bessie but my meta destroys it :lol:

agree it would be nice if SJ could get an avatar and I have the same thing with plytho's avatar as mpolo (it says "user avatar" but no av displays)

I think SJ's spreadsheet is weird. It's the sort of thing a scum player might try out to avoid having to take direct responsibility for their reads - but since SJ is new it could just be a legitimate playstyle that SJ is going for, like Hari Seldon did. Anyway, I'm suspicious, especially because the things that are being rated don't seem to be specifically correlated to towniniess IMO - unless SJ wants to reveal that 5 past games have been rated and thus a system has been developed :P
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Madge » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:39 pm UTC

I think Sabrar is just being Sabrar. I mean he's no boomfrog but I wouldn't put a gambit past him.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:49 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
bessie wrote:Ok, I’m not sure how to get Sabrar to post, but if this is some lame posting restriction I’m going to be really super pissed off disappointed in at least three people.

Something is definitely up. It is extremely different then his usual style. I expect him to address this issue in his next post.
BoomFrog, I think you may be on to something. This is off, even compared to DecoySabrar of WoT3.

Post count, including confirmation posts:

bessie: 5
BoomFrog: 8
LaserGuy: 9
Madge: 6
Mark_Cangila: 2
MasterOfAll: 4
moody7277: 4
mpolo: 5
plytho: 6
Sabrar: 2
SuicideJunkie: 10
wam: 5


Mark_Cangila wrote:I need to stop lurking!
Mark, please make a few posts.

Madge wrote:I think Sabrar is just being Sabrar. I mean he's no boomfrog but I wouldn't put a gambit past him.
This is wrong enough to move Madge to the top of my scum list. Recalculating.

Unvote

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:55 pm UTC

@Wam: What was your first thought when you saw Bessie vote for Sabrar?
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby moody7277 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:00 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:Loquaciousness: moody - D


That fits me to a tee, and I've sometimes paid for it.

bessie wrote:bessie: 5
BoomFrog: 8
LaserGuy: 9
Madge: 6
Mark_Cangila: 2
MasterOfAll: 4
moody7277: 4
mpolo: 5
plytho: 6
Sabrar: 2
SuicideJunkie: 10
wam: 5


FTFY. Also I find the indignation in your responses earlier to be genuine, so back to townie read on you. I also agree with you that Madge being accepting of silent!Sabrar is not a very townie thing to do.

Almost getting time for my Snap Judgement Reads PostTM. Will likely compose it sometime Sunday.

unvote
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Madge » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:01 pm UTC

Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, bessie! Why is it impossible that Sabrar would do a gambit?
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Madge » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:03 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote: also agree with you that Madge being accepting of silent!Sabrar is not a very townie thing to do.


We're nowhere near deadline. If we get close to deadline and Sabrar is still quiet, then I'll worry.

I mean for crying out loud it might not be a gambit at all and he might just be busy...
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:11 pm UTC

Regarding modifications to submitted roles/flavor:
Spoiler:
I don't want to reopen old wounds, create new ones and rant. So here is my general opinion and I hope to leave it at that:
- it is possible that all flavor was 'medievalified' and it would be a shame because why would you say "Holiday themed flavour is not necessary, but is always welcome" if you then don't use it.
- it is my secret hope (that will never be fulfilled) that mods wouldn't modify an ability without notifying the player who submitted it. It creates an asymmetric situation which should never happen.
- This
- rule 7 (as it is written) is dumb, impractical, unenforcable and can directly hinder Town's chances. It should never have been introduced if you want to keep the spirit of the game.

Spoiler:
- wam's answer seems arbitrary, rest is null
- moody does setup-spec which is null and safe and everyone saying 9-3 or 8-3-1 and does not help things move forward.
- mpolo continues to lurk, opinion of "don't claim" is safe and does not reveal anything. Win-con is standard, there is nothing there to hint or not-hint to any indies, so his line of thought should not have gone there
- MasterOfAll continues to not provide any opinions, just asking some irrelevant questions.
- SuicideJunkie reminds me a bit of Peaceful Whale. I think I will need to see connections to other people to sort him out. His 'reads' are mostly useless.
@SuicideJunkie: Is 'him/his' correct?
- start of buddying between BoomFrog and SuicideJunkie
- SuicideJunkie should be aware that random voting has a long history on this forum and town/scum uses it equally (and some players don't use it all regardless of alignment). That train of thought is simply not applicable.
- irl
- I will come back to Mark later
- yes, what I've just said
- nice explanation. Might come from scum if LaserGuy prepared the analysis before receiving the role-pm and then posted it anyway to gain town-cred knowing it won't matter anyway (see an example for this here). Still, good for removing scum-point, especially as he's using the reactions to sort people (though I don't necessarily agree with all of his points).
- standard LaserGuy-confidence
- null
- plytho makes good points and earns a townie-point.
- lurking mpolo
- moody reconsidering is a good sign.
- filler
- reply to filler
- I think this is null for Madge
- another good point by plytho.
- same by LaserGuy. He also uses a post hoc argument which isn't really relevant but makes it more likely that he thought about claims from a townie-mindset.
- 6 new paragraphs of MasterOfAll not providing any reads nor moving the game forward in any way, shape or form.
- I seriously question BoomFrog's automatic town-read on an unknown player with an unknown playstyle. He needs to explain why the same can't come from scum. I also disagree with MasterofAll's placement, and the reasoning seems quite alien. His treatment of the players with no actual content is weird as well. This is nothing that I would have expected from him.

BoomFrog
Spoiler:
BoomFrog wrote:Undeserved. moody easily jokes as scum.
The content of the joke is significant.
BoomFrog wrote:I'm always self aware while trying to stay natural and I discussed this last game with Zen
I doubt that you can achieve it but it's irrelevant. I didn't remember you discussing it because I modded that game and was therefore much less interested in those things. Or are you referring to Texas where I died N1?
BoomFrog wrote:Why? plytho is savvy enough to see the obvious joke there...
Joke was not that obvious to me so it looked strange that he didn't even look for any alternative explanations.
BoomFrog wrote:Short is typical wam, and the P.S. about post length is clearly just about poetry slam mafia.
I knew the reference bt high-frequency posting is also typical for wam. Last time I mentioned his lurking he was scum.

Spoiler:
- SuicideJunkie continues with the buddying

bessie
Spoiler:
bessie wrote:Untrue and you know it. Example, hmmm, how about let’s use Secret Santa 2017
Your example just reinforces my point (though maybe I could have phrased it better). You were aware of moody's disposition last year, but you didn't take it into account now and attacked him for it.
bessie wrote:Re: wam’s confirmation post in B99. My analysis on why it was scummy here:
I concede this one, I didn't remember that you later explained it.
bessie wrote:No double standard. Like BoomFrog, I am self aware that I tailored my post to your expectations, and like BoomFrog, I acknowledged it.
Yes, you both did the exact same thing. But you FoS-d BoomFrog for it, meaning you think it's scummy. Why did you then deliberately do something scummy?

Rest of content is reasonable

Spoiler:
- null
- mpolo finally provides a single read though it's just going with the flow. Homework to anyone with the necessary time: compare mpolo in Texas and Chaos
- claims analysis was just 'made up', fishing for reactions. Maintains scum-read on MasterOfAll because he ignored joke-post. Inconsistent. Calling me 'off' is opportunistic, especially with the usage of the word re-read.

wam
Spoiler:
wam wrote:1 for sabrar content is down.
High-content is NAI for me. Why would low content be otherwise? Why don't you take the effort to try and think of a reason?
wam wrote:2 doesn't engage with this post from Bessie.
This is an obvious falsehood and just shows that wam couldn't have reread my content with too much attention to detail. I mean how can you miss the fact that the only player that I actually quoted was bessie from the very same post??
wam wrote:3 I agree with booms points here
Sheeping, not even waiting for my answer and not doing any independent scum-hunting.

Spoiler:
- new player spending their time inefficiently
- finally someone thinking outside the box. Also bessie's frustration feels genuine and somewhat more likely to come from town.
- good advice
- exactly
- LaserGuy is on the right track. 2 townie-points
- null for BoomFrog
- slight townie-signs from Madge, best to wait and see
- good independent thinking
- this is the classic bessie vs Madge we've been all waiting for. It could go either way...
- BoomFrog poking in the right direction
- moody is also self-aware
- Madge sounds a tiny bit defensive
- yeap

@BoomFrog: please explain your read on SuicideJunkie and MasterOfAll
@plytho: you have good theoretical points. Could you give reads as well? Why have you limited your interactions to mostly SuicideJunkie?
@SuicideJunkie: could you please provide reads with actual reasons why you find specific players townie/scummy?

To those who are curious
Spoiler:
I categorically deny having a post-restriction in my role-pm.

Completely off
Spoiler:
I can see plytho's avatar on phone but not on computer (Chrome).

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:23 pm UTC

@Sabrar – Categorically like Madge in Chaos?

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:52 pm UTC

You know one of these days I will actually explain myself properly. When I said did not engage I meant the line below.

bessie wrote:
Ok Sabrar, what did I leave off the checklist?
.


I would have expected town sabrar to engage with this line. Which I don't think he did unless I missed it.

Low content from sabrar could be that your taking more care over each post as you are worrying about perception instead of playing naturally.

BoomFrog wrote:@Wam: What was your first thought when you saw Bessie vote for Sabrar?


More a question than a thought " is this normal argument or more?"

Also looking back at it, it's very early day 1 for Bessie to be voting. Normally she waits till much later day 1. Don't know if this is AI.
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