British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Zamfir » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:12 pm UTC

Would a referendum under those terms be attractive for labour? My impression is that Labour aims at a "labour-style" brexit - they take over, and negotiate a mild brexit with some different priorities from the Tories.

Regardless whether that is achievable, the possibility of such an alternative outcome keeps the party from breaking up completely.

A referendum with two Tory-options plus remain, would hardly be attractive for them? Could the Tories even start a referendum without some Labour support? I assume that the hard leavers among the Tories are not in favour of a second referendum.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby HES » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:59 pm UTC

Now that the deal is defeated and assuming tonight's vote doesn't lead to a General Election, what other option is there but a referendum? There is growing cross party support and even the hardliners might support it for their own reasons - the argument would be about the question, including remain, splitting the leave vote...
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby orthogon » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:14 pm UTC

HES wrote:Now that the deal is defeated and assuming tonight's vote doesn't lead to a General Election, what other option is there but a referendum? There is growing cross party support and even the hardliners might support it for their own reasons - the argument would be about the question, including remain, splitting the leave vote...

In principle, with a decent preferential voting system, it wouldn't matter so much what was on the ballot and the risk of splitting the leave (or remain) vote would not be an issue. However, we have to bear in mind that a vast swathe of the UK population failed to grasp that, actually, we don't send £350m a week to the EU, or that the EU didn't stop us having blue passports. So I don't fancy the chances of communicating the message that "don't worry, it's a Condorcet system so is bound to select any option that beats all other options in a pairwise contest, although of course it does violate Independence of Irrelevant Alternatives".

OTOH, I suspect what you mean is that there will be an argument that certain options ought not to be on the ballot at all - in particular remaining in the EU, on the basis that this option was already "rejected" in 2016. But it would be hard to argue against an option that polls are showing is supported by more than half the population.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:38 pm UTC

Hopefully, this time the referendum won't be coded as something like "Do your prefer Cameron or Johnson?". Which it basically was for some people.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby orthogon » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:13 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Hopefully, this time the referendum won't be coded as something like "Do your prefer Cameron or Johnson?". Which it basically was for some people.

That's another point - the options ought to be fully defined options: May's deal, or membership under current terms, or the exact same status as Norway. That's why "go back to Brussels and renegotiate" perhaps shouldn't be an option (unless it implies a third referendum once the renegotiation has taken place). We don't want to give people the option to vote for magical unicorns again. That's one of the biggest issues with the 2016 referendum (the other is the blatant lies): even accepting that 52% represents a clear choice, there were at least as many Brexits promised as there were Brexit-supporting politicians. Probably many more, since consistency is not one of that lot's strong points.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Leovan » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:32 pm UTC

Similar votes in Switzerland would usually present the options in an either/or manner, so:

Should we leave or remain?
If the above is leave, should we give the government one additional year to negotiate?
If no additional time is granted, should we take the current deal or leave without a deal?

That way you don't split the vote on any of the issues, you just ask more questions.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby orthogon » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:02 pm UTC

Leovan wrote:Similar votes in Switzerland would usually present the options in an either/or manner, so:

Should we leave or remain?
If the above is leave, should we give the government one additional year to negotiate?
If no additional time is granted, should we take the current deal or leave without a deal?

That way you don't split the vote on any of the issues, you just ask more questions.

Interesting - I was wondering about something like that, but I was thinking you'd need to ask about all the pairwise combinations. My main problem with your example is that it doesn't give remainers the chance to express a preference for ways of leaving, whereas a preferential vote would allow me to say "I would remain, then leave under the Norway option, then leave with May's deal, with leaving with no deal as my least preferred option". You could avoid that by having everyone answer all the questions, rather than the decision tree that you imply. But I'm not convinced it can handle a three-way split with no hierarchy, e.g. between May's deal, Norway and Canada++. And in your example, you might have voters who want May's deal, but would rather remain than leave without a deal. There's no way to express that. It's not as bad as the simple multiple-choice plurality vote, but it's still too open to being gamed.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:01 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Interesting - I was wondering about something like that, but I was thinking you'd need to ask about all the pairwise combinations. My main problem with your example is that it doesn't give remainers the chance to express a preference for ways of leaving, whereas a preferential vote would allow me to say "I would remain, then leave under the Norway option, then leave with May's deal, with leaving with no deal as my least preferred option". You could avoid that by having everyone answer all the questions, rather than the decision tree that you imply. But I'm not convinced it can handle a three-way split with no hierarchy, e.g. between May's deal, Norway and Canada++. And in your example, you might have voters who want May's deal, but would rather remain than leave without a deal. There's no way to express that. It's not as bad as the simple multiple-choice plurality vote, but it's still too open to being gamed.

I agree with the thrust of your post - that's why I recommended some form of preference voting in my post too. But I wanted to point out that any poll cannot include options the EU haven't agreed to (and may never agree to) such as Norway, Canada++ etc. That's why my poll only included the options the UK has within its power to achieve unilaterally: Keep the status quo, go with May's deal or leave with no deal.

That was part of the problem with the original referendum: Many leavers chose to interpret 'Brexit' as whatever suited them. Sure, who wouldn't want free trade of goods, to decide common legislation yet not have it apply to us, to freely move abroad yet prevent foreigners coming here etc. Let's all vote for that option...

No, the EU aren't going to allow us to keep at this endlessly, continually restarting negotiations until we get a deal we like, that's yet another way May's government put the cart before the horse: They should have first negotiated with parliament (in secret if need be) and only then invoked Article 50. If anything is a cross-party issue in recent times this definitely is, especially given how Labour and the Tories are equally divided. Then there can be a quick meeting of minds: Yes, we (the UK and EU) can make this work, or no we can't and we need to go our separate ways.

Instead, the government wasted two years negotiating with Europe something that parliament was never going to agree to - and, to be fair to them, the EU have complained since the start that the UK just doesn't seem to know what it wants...

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Leovan » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:29 pm UTC

Everybody would get to answer all the options. The 'if' isn't "if you chose leave", it's "if the popular vote is leave, then what is your preference?"
So you could answer 'remain', 'more time', and 'current deal' if you wanted.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:23 pm UTC

Leovan wrote:Everybody would get to answer all the options. The 'if' isn't "if you chose leave", it's "if the popular vote is leave, then what is your preference?"
So you could answer 'remain', 'more time', and 'current deal' if you wanted.

I always wondered if brexit is how the rest of the world views the Trump administration. Strange, outrageous, and nobody except insiders knows why it's hasn't collapsed.
Last edited by sardia on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:32 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Zohar » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:21 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Leovan wrote:Everybody would get to answer all the options. The 'if' isn't "if you chose leave", it's "if the popular vote is leave, then what is your preference?"
So you could answer 'remain', 'more time', and 'current deal' if you wanted.

I always wondered if brexit is how the rest of the world views the Trump administration. Strange, outrageous, and nobody ever insiders knows why it's hasn't collapsed.

The brexit vote and the 2016 elections are definitely perceived to be on the same scale of stupid/malicious by a lot of people, yes.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby dubsola » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:49 am UTC

I think an election serves no purpose until Corbyn comes out with Labour's Brexit policy.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:32 am UTC

elasto wrote:Despite how the right-wing newspapers will portray it, this is parliamentary democracy working as intended.
Today's Daily Hate-Heil front page is saying that defeating Brexit would let the far right gain power.

orthogon wrote:I suspect what you mean is that there will be an argument that certain options ought not to be on the ballot at all - in particular remaining in the EU, on the basis that this option was already "rejected" in 2016. But it would be hard to argue against an option that polls are showing is supported by more than half the population.

I worked out back then that, by the end of March this year, the differences in how age groups voted, the demographics of the UK and the different rates of death between age groups would leave more Remain voters than Leave voters alive to see what happened.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby duodecimus » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:44 am UTC

Wait, walking back Brexit is still an option? Why hasn't that been chosen, since the vast majority of Pro-Brexit politicians have stepped down at this point?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:23 am UTC

"Will of the people", as stated by those who may have stepped down or were never in official power, but who are vocal about the apparent 17 million adherents to their position and dismiss the 16 million (and the rest) as irrelevent*.

The "Will" of the people was clearly ambivalence, in 2016. It'd be interesting to learn officially where it might be today, but I'm not sure where the current path is leading. Depends a lot on how May plays her next move, or who might sneak in their own move before that


* - It's often still cited as "the largest majority" of any such referendum, when of the UK-wide referenda it was beaten by both the AV and original Membership ones that are the only other two I can even remember happening. If a government is supported by such a low margin, it would not have a clear mandate, though given May lost even that level of support** against an unpredictably popular opposition, it's not even a useful comparison.

** - As both Labour and the Conservatives were pro-Brexit at their head (in Corbyn's head, May not so much but nailing her colours to thatmast anyway) the other favourite comparison was to say that voters in 2017 voted overwhelmingly for pro-Brexit parties. Except that many constituency battlegrounds are basically only fought between the these two, and the main anti-Brexit party was already unlikely to get enough significant gains with their successes and failures still likely governed by their recent "in power, but not" stint that erased much of their possible good-will,

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby orthogon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:38 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:** - As both Labour and the Conservatives were pro-Brexit at their head (in Corbyn's head, May not so much but nailing her colours to thatmast anyway) the other favourite comparison was to say that voters in 2017 voted overwhelmingly for pro-Brexit parties. Except that many constituency battlegrounds are basically only fought between the these two, and the main anti-Brexit party was already unlikely to get enough significant gains with their successes and failures still likely governed by their recent "in power, but not" stint that erased much of their possible good-will,

This, plus the fact that many (most?) Labour MPs were (or still are) vocally anti-Brexit. (Lots of them are anti-Corbyn!). My MP voted against Article 50, for example. As any fule no, in the UK you vote for your representative, not for a party. Usually that's largely a theoretical distinction, since successful rebellions are rare. But Brexit is so clearly a cross-party issue that the usual approximation doesn't apply.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:29 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Today's Daily Hate-Heil front page is saying that defeating Brexit would let the far right gain power.

I think there's a great deal of truth in that, which is why only a new referendum has the moral authority to overturn the previous one.

Politicians abdicated their responsibility when they voted to have the referendum and they can't now unilaterally grab it back. The fact the referendum was only advisory and not legally binding makes no odds. That's yet another nuance the public couldn't have been expected to grasp.

dubsola wrote:I think an election serves no purpose until Corbyn comes out with Labour's Brexit policy.

Corbyn has been useless on this from the beginning, and I say that as someone who still holds out hope that a Corbyn government could deliver some genuinely radical reforms. (But I do worry that it could deliver some genuine cock-ups also...)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Xenomortis » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:08 pm UTC

duodecimus wrote:Wait, walking back Brexit is still an option? Why hasn't that been chosen, since the vast majority of Pro-Brexit politicians have stepped down at this point?

The UK appears to have the power, in the eyes of the European Court of Justice (at least, unofficially, without a full ruling), to unilaterally reverse Article 50 and remain the EU.
But it is not clear how that could happen at this stage.

To rule in Westminster, a party will need the votes of a lot of people that voted to Leave the EU (and many of those people would likely do so again).
Reversing Article 50 without another public consult would be political suicide for the government that does it, and would do little to ease the current divisions. And there is not time for another referendum before the UK actually leaves the EU (and little time for renegotiation) - an extension to the Article's timeline would be required, and that requires a unanimous vote of the other EU member states

And I would be surprised if there was enough of a change in public opinion for a second referendum to tip the other way. And if it did, and the UK suddenly decided to stay, there would still be long lasting problems in terms of politics and public perception.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:53 pm UTC

The other alternative version of "Oops, we didn't mean to leave… excuse-ey mwa, Mine Heron and Dammen, we wish-o to be-o in the EU-o after all-o, Grassy Arse!" would be joining again from scratch after leaving. Which would be totally without all those nice exceptions we had (we must be in Schengen, no longer do we not need to full subscribe to the Lisbon Treaty's "European Rights" charter, gone is the limited adherence to the ECJ and £->€, of course, if our economy is still acceptable for monetary Brussels at that time) and have probably proven De Gaul correct from the off.

Pretty much every point that Leavers stated as bad things (free movement, sovereignty, the loss of the Pound) was currently actually not so bad, but due to UKIP and the impetuous desire to give the nation a say in who runs the Conservative Party, all these are now in danger.

The only main issue that we might not have had an automatic opt-out for is the nebulous future "European Army", and we never asked for an out from the Western European Union defence alliance. (The only EU country that didn't was Denmark, who also kept out of the Euro by referendum-led opt-out and are opted completely out of Area of Freedom, Security and Justice rules that they conduct on their own terms, other than Schengen.) The only half-serious considerations towards that, though, arose due to Trump's America First and anti-NATO bluster, and it's arguable that Brexit tipped the balance towards the conditions that tipped the US elections that way, so... Potentially it's a nice job breaking that layer of sovereignty, too, by those who didn't want it breaking…

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Link » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:11 pm UTC

There's a whole lot of talk about "Plan B", renegotiation, extension, etcetera, but I thought the EU had already stated in no unclear terms that there would be no renegotiation, and that May's deal was the best the UK could hope to get. So can anybody tell me why there's even an expectation that anything other than "we'll take May's deal", "we'll have a no-deal Brexit", or "we're unilaterally calling the whole thing off" won't just end with the EU saying "lol nah"?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Xenomortis » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:03 pm UTC

You've been told you have to eat one of three choices of meal.
All three meals are piles of shit. Actual shit.
There is nothing good that will come from eating a plate of excrement.

How easy would it be for you to pick a meal to eat?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:43 pm UTC

Link wrote:There's a whole lot of talk about "Plan B", renegotiation, extension, etcetera, but I thought the EU had already stated in no unclear terms that there would be no renegotiation, and that May's deal was the best the UK could hope to get. So can anybody tell me why there's even an expectation that anything other than "we'll take May's deal", "we'll have a no-deal Brexit", or "we're unilaterally calling the whole thing off" won't just end with the EU saying "lol nah"?

I agree.

Like I said before, even ignoring everything else, there's the simple fact that we're not negotiating with one party but dozens. Sure, they have a 'chief negotiator' but, unlike what the Daily Mail might have you think, the EU is actually broadly a democratic institution based on consensus.

The only way I could see a renegotiation coming about would be if:

1) A general election was called that Labour won
2) Labour restarted the clock by rescinding Article 50 then reenacting it (and parliament would have to vote to agree to both aspects of that)
3) The EU didn't get p*ssed off by us doing that and restarted negotiations in good faith

Right now that seems a less likely chain of events to me than a second referendum.

The government seems dead set against a second referendum but I literally don't see what other way they can turn.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Link » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:46 pm UTC

(Ninja'd by elasto.)

Xenomortis wrote:
You've been told you have to eat one of three choices of meal.
All three meals are piles of shit. Actual shit.
There is nothing good that will come from eating a plate of excrement.

How easy would it be for you to pick a meal to eat?

Well sure, but once you've been told by the owner of the restaurant that they *only* serve shit, it seems a bit pointless to expect to be served something that isn't shit. Like, I can totally see why you'd ask, but actually expecting something else seems incredibly naive to me. And the media seems to suggest it's exactly what the UK is doing right now, rather than accepting at some point you have no choice but to either pick the least foul-smelling turd to eat, or starve altogether.

Of course the real problem is booking a premium table at Chez Merde before having looked at the menu or read the terms and conditions, but there's no going back from that now. The best you can do is damage control.

Thing is, as far as the EU is concerned, I would imagine extending negotiations -- most likely ad infinitum once you get started -- is a worse option than sticking to the deadline and saying "take May's deal or go cold turkey".

ETA:
elasto wrote:The government seems dead set against a second referendum but I literally don't see what other way they can turn.
Exactly. Sure, you piss off some of the gammon (but then again they're pissed off if you so much as breathe in their general direction, so I guess that's just the way it is), but I don't see why they'd be so against releasing a statement along the lines of "Look, Cameron was a bit of a slaphead when he called a referendum while nobody knew jack diddly fuckall about the consequences, but now we do, so we want to make absolutely sure you're all still on board before we irreversibly jump the shite waterfall that is Brexit."

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:00 pm UTC


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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Link » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:51 pm UTC

:shock: So basically, Cameron played a very, very dangerous game of poker to rally the conservative base, it blew up epically, then he decided to roll with it to save face, and then he vamoosed the moment it backfired again. Just... wow. The only word that comes to mind is "fuckweasel", but that doesn't even begin to cover it, does it?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:50 pm UTC

Yup.

May has made some honest comments over a second referendum which I agree with:

What did Mrs May say about another referendum?

She told MPs: "Our duty is to implement the decision of the first one. I fear a second referendum would set a difficult precedent that could have significant implications for how we handle referendums in this country. Not least, strengthening the hand of those campaigning to break up our United Kingdom.

"It would require an extension of Article 50. We would very likely have to return a new set of MEPs to the European Parliament in May.

"And I also believe that there has not yet been enough recognition of the way that a second referendum could damage social cohesion by undermining faith in our democracy."

Yet despite all that I think it still remains the least worst option.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby sardia » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:56 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:You've been told you have to eat one of three choices of meal.
All three meals are piles of shit. Actual shit.
There is nothing good that will come from eating a plate of excrement.

How easy would it be for you to pick a meal to eat?

You tell the 50% of the country who are shiteaters to go to hell, and then have the nonshiteaters drag everyone away from the Brexit shit. Unless...you want to eat shit, which is kinda the vibe that Europe is getting from the UK. Isn't support for Brexit still above 50%?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:12 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:You've been told you have to eat one of three choices of meal.
All three meals are piles of shit. Actual shit.
There is nothing good that will come from eating a plate of excrement.

How easy would it be for you to pick a meal to eat?

You tell the 50% of the country who are shiteaters to go to hell, and then have the nonshiteaters drag everyone away from the Brexit shit. Unless...you want to eat shit, which is kinda the vibe that Europe is getting from the UK. Isn't support for Brexit still above 50%?

Cancelling Brexit is merely one of the flavours of shit - don't think that'll end well for anyone involved in the decision making process.
There is no "non-shit" option, just different types of shit, and nobody is really sure which'll cause the least gastrointestinal distress (for the government in particular, but also the country as a whole).

To my view, whatever government oversees a "no-deal" Brexit will lose the next general election.
But also, any government that overturns the Brexit process, overriding the referendum, would also lose the next election.
So the only "maybe not lose an election" option for the government, that I saw at least, was the deal May had, but nobody liked it.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Zamfir » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:40 am UTC

From across the sea, I don't think I am hoping for a reversal of brexit anymore. Especially not some grudging reversal, driven by fear for the transition period.

The toxic debate would linger on your side, presumably with some form of Dolchstosslegende. Future British governments will go on an unending spree of scoring public points against the EU, even worse than in the past.

And suspect that it's bad for the EU institutions, if it seems that exit is impossible. The EU needs more a positive approach, and closer to the people. "there is no alternative" is the last attitude it needs.

At this point, the UK (and to some extent the EU) needs to figure out something stable, something that the middle section of the UK electorate genuinely likes. At this point, can that still be EU membership?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Quercus » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:31 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:At this point, the UK (and to some extent the EU) needs to figure out something stable, something that the middle section of the UK electorate genuinely likes. At this point, can that still be EU membership?


From what I see there isn't much of a middle ground any more, certainly not one big enough to ensure stability - everyone I've spoken to about it is either vehemently against Brexit, or vehemently in favour of it. A middle way would leave very few people happy. It's a bit of a problem.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby HES » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:00 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:It's a bit of a problem.

Quite so.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby orthogon » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:56 pm UTC

HES wrote:
Quercus wrote:It's a bit of a problem.

Quite so.

It's the kind of pickle that would previously have been resolved by a Civil War.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby speising » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:05 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
HES wrote:
Quercus wrote:It's a bit of a problem.

Quite so.

It's the kind of pickle that would previously have been resolved by a Civil War.

Plan C?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:10 pm UTC

How about we don't encourage the Germans (the backbone of the EU), to use force in order to get what they want? The far right is dangerous enough without reawakening the German war machine.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:52 pm UTC

Any chance the UK could convince the Queen to just unilaterally make a decision about what to do and everyone just agrees to go with it? Like are there any vestigial powers that she still has access to?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:00 pm UTC

Parliament stripped her of her ability to dissolve it whenever she wanted, back in 2011(?).
That was the main tool (that was never used anyway).
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Grop » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:51 pm UTC

sardia wrote:How about we don't encourage the Germans (the backbone of the EU), to use force in order to get what they want? The far right is dangerous enough without reawakening the German war machine.


Because while Brits are panicking they also need to insult Germans.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:53 pm UTC

Grop wrote:Because while Brits are panicking they also need to insult Germans.

That's unfair. We also need to insult the Belgians, the French, the Spanish, Italians, Greeks, Turkish, Nigerians, Argentinians, Indians and/or Pakistanis, people from at least one Korea, both Chinas, the bit of Australia that's actually New Zealand, Iceland, the less explosive-caching bits of Ireland, whichever random bits of the Caribbean we could give as an answer in the quiz Pointless (assuming Central African Republic doesn't fulfill the criteria) and Wales.

Oh, and the guy next door who won't cut his side of the hedge.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Sableagle » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:23 am UTC

Link wrote::shock: So basically, Cameron played a very, very dangerous game of poker to rally the conservative base, it blew up epically, then he decided to roll with it to save face, and then he vamoosed the moment it backfired again. Just... wow. The only word that comes to mind is "fuckweasel", but that doesn't even begin to cover it, does it?

On behalf of weasels everywhere:
HEY!


sardia wrote:Isn't support for Brexit still above 50%?
The xenophobes and their cheerleaders at the Daily Hate Mail are still as vocal as before, but I've heard a lot more from (many) Leave-voters saying they'd vote Remain now than from (precisely no) Remain-voters saying they'd vote Leave now. Also, when the votes were broken down by various demographics, the Leave-voters were mostly very old, young people very strongly favoured Remaining and it's been a few years, so of the people who voted in that referendum there are now more surviving Remain-voters than Leave-voters.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:03 am UTC

The Leave-inclined are concentrating on the Remainers who may or may not still vote Remain in another vote (they tend to not touch that) but are apparently saying "If you're going to do it, do it already!" as far as the Brexit process itself, to justify their worldview.

And there'll still be some people in a new Referendum who will vote as a protest (whichever way they the protest ends up relevant) to those who they perceive as being in charge at the time. Hard to say right now what that'd be, given we don't know the state of the parliament/government/cabinet/PM beyond the immediate future.


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