Avengers: Endgame

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Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:29 pm UTC

There is not much I can say in the non-spoiler category other than that this was a very satisfying conclusion. Three hours but not feel long.

Spoiler:
We pretty much knew this would be Tony and Steve's last appearance, one way or another, and their endings were very fitting.

I did not at all expect Natasha to die. Seems an odd choice, given that she has a standalone prequel coming up. Had to be her and Barton together at the end.

Wait so is the 2014 Gamora still alive in 2024 at the end of the show?

Also it is going to be a weird world, where some folks have aged five fewer years than everyone else.

No postcredit or midcredit scenes. Nothing to set up. Its the end of an era. Hard to imagine that the MCU will be able to create another cycle with this level of buildup or excitement.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:45 pm UTC

Oh it's out already? Guess I need to avoid this thread altogether until next week when I can actually watch it.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:55 am UTC

Not really a spoiler: if you stay to the end of the credits, there is something there, but less than what Deadpool 2 offered lingerers.

Spoilers:
Spoiler:
Only one thing for now: They broke time. It's all very well returning the Infinity Stones, but they're also looking at a timeline without a Thanos, but with an extra Steve Rogers, who made it into "our" present time. So Thanos and Gamora disappeared in 2014, around the start of Guardians 1, but the Guardians movies and Infinity War and the first five years of Endgame still happened...

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:17 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Not really a spoiler: if you stay to the end of the credits, there is something there, but less than what Deadpool 2 offered lingerers.



Could you work out what it was? I'll have to see it again and be more attentive.

rmsgrey wrote:Spoilers:
Spoiler:
Only one thing for now: They broke time. It's all very well returning the Infinity Stones, but they're also looking at a timeline without a Thanos, but with an extra Steve Rogers, who made it into "our" present time. So Thanos and Gamora disappeared in 2014, around the start of Guardians 1, but the Guardians movies and Infinity War and the first five years of Endgame still happened...



Spoiler:
I was accepting of their model for time travel. Once you make the change, there's a completely different timeline, a different parallel universe if you like, that does not become "your" present. So for mine, I was okay with the Gamora and Thanos aspect. On the other hand, somewhere out there is a universe that continued in which half of humanity suddenly disappeared and stayed gone, when they were all stolen to the universe shown in the movie. Eek. But yeah I think the Steve Rogers thing kind of doesn't obey their own rules. The timeline/universe in which Rogers spends a life with Carter should, by their rules, not be the same one the movie ends in.



I'm still digesting the movie but damn.

I love me some callbacks and callforwards. It's pretty clear that they sprinkled lines throughout the MCU that would retrospectively refer to events in IW and Endgame.

e.g. the following callforwards for IW.
(Iron Man) Jarvis: A very astute observation, sir. Perhaps if you intend to visit other planets, we should improve the exo systems.
(Iron Man 2) Ivan: If you can make God bleed, the people will cease to believe in him.

There are a few such for Endgame but my favourite is:

Spoiler:
the scene in Captain America: The Winter Soldier where Steve visits Peggy, who says, "The world has changed and none of us can go back. All we can do is our best, and sometimes the best that we can do is to start over."



A lot of characters return but I got a particular kick out of seeing
Spoiler:
Sitwell and the rest of the Hydra crew, Alexander Pierce, Frigga, Howard Stark, Peggy Carter, Harley (the kid from Iron Man 3) and Edwin Jarvis. I found the last to be surprising since I was under the impression that Marvel was not going to allow anything unique to the various MCU-related TV series to spill over to the film universe.


The major battle was a little bit like the Battle Of Five Armies but fortunately there isn't a 45 minute series of fake-out endings after that...
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Angua » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:25 am UTC

I thought it was a good way to wrap up the set. Lots of call backs to everything that came before, but a lot of new stuff to go forwards too. Well done to the whole team at managing to pull it off without it crumbling under expectations.

Spoilered random thoughts
Spoiler:
Loved Thor's interaction with Frigga. She was so awesome and had great advice. Also when she tells Thor he should leave the sneaking to his brother.

I liked the 'Time Heist' and their version of time travel where it merely splits down a different line rather than changing the past. Also loved that Loki was the only one who noticed what was going on. Not sure that bit of the timeline will be able to be that repaired.

I was wondering what was taking Steven Strange so long to show up, but having to bring everyone together for the final battle takes some time.

Liked that Cap could hold Mjolnir at the end, though kind of feel like it would have been cool if all the avengers were worthy.

Liked the bit with the female characters all together. It's sad we don't have more movies with them taking centre stage, but glad they exist all the same. I'm sure there will be complaints about it from the internet though.

Tony giving Howard parenting advice was interesting.

Loved the callback to the elevator scene.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:03 pm UTC

OP Tipping wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Not really a spoiler: if you stay to the end of the credits, there is something there, but less than what Deadpool 2 offered lingerers.



Could you work out what it was? I'll have to see it again and be more attentive.


Spoiler:
It was the sound of something heavy hitting metal repeatedly in a rhythmic fashion. My assumption is that it's Iron Man making his first suit from the first MCU movie, but there are plenty of other possible interpretations - such as foreshadowing a new Iron Man.


OP Tipping wrote:I love me some callbacks and callforwards. It's pretty clear that they sprinkled lines throughout the MCU that would retrospectively refer to events in IW and Endgame.

e.g. the following callforwards for IW.
(Iron Man) Jarvis: A very astute observation, sir. Perhaps if you intend to visit other planets, we should improve the exo systems.
(Iron Man 2) Ivan: If you can make God bleed, the people will cease to believe in him.


I'm a long way from being sold on those being deliberate setups. My best guess would be that they were either coincidences (make enough movies with enough insightful-sounding lines all with the same underlying worldview, and you'll have some of them be directly applicable to situations in later movies just by chance) or, at best, Infinity War was twerked to fit those earlier lines.

In particular, the IM2 line about making God bleed doesn't really apply to IW - no-one stops believing in Thanos as a result, and no-one involved in that fight views him as a God anyway.



A thought I had during Endgame:
Spoiler:
When Thanos got a glimpse of the future through the twin Nebulas, my immediate thought was "predestination paradox" - that the reason Thanos had been so unstoppable, and so well informed in Infinity War was that he had been "cursed with knowledge" and was "inevitable" due to glimpsing enough of the future to know how he was going to win. Of course, that's not how things ended up going, but it would have made for a more consistent form of time travel. The problem, of course, is that they wouldn't have had any Thanos for the final battle...


Angua wrote:Spoilered random thoughts
Spoiler:
Loved Thor's interaction with Frigga. She was so awesome and had great advice. Also when she tells Thor he should leave the sneaking to his brother.

I liked the 'Time Heist' and their version of time travel where it merely splits down a different line rather than changing the past. Also loved that Loki was the only one who noticed what was going on. Not sure that bit of the timeline will be able to be that repaired.

I was wondering what was taking Steven Strange so long to show up, but having to bring everyone together for the final battle takes some time.

Liked that Cap could hold Mjolnir at the end, though kind of feel like it would have been cool if all the avengers were worthy.

Liked the bit with the female characters all together. It's sad we don't have more movies with them taking centre stage, but glad they exist all the same. I'm sure there will be complaints about it from the internet though.

Tony giving Howard parenting advice was interesting.

Loved the callback to the elevator scene.


I generally agree with your thoughts except:

Spoiler:
The "girl power" bit felt a little too forced. Too "look at us, aren't we inclusive and modern". Most of them don't even know each other, and their only commonality as a group is that they're all female heroes, so, particularly with Proxima Midnight leading the opposing army, it feels a bit like having a women's league.

I love that we have these characters - I particularly liked seeing Pepper finally wearing the suit again after IM3 - but it felt a bit jarring to have every woman on the battlefield in their own fight while the men had their man-fights elsewhere...


Random thoughts of my own about where the movie leaves the MCU:

Spoiler:
With half the characters 5 years older and half the same age in the new 2023 as they were in 2018, they've given themselves the perfect opportunity to shake things up - for any character we didn't see at the end of Endgame, they can either maintain the status quo for them, or make them 5 years older - for example, Cassie Lang is now old enough to start joining Scott and Hope on their adventures (in an irresponsible parenting kind of way). It seems from the Far From Home trailers that Peter Parker's important classmates all got snapped, but Vulture could be 5 years closer to making parole - or could have scored an early release.

Vision is a special case - most characters are either definitely dead (with a perpetual asterisk next to Loki) or presumed alive (anyone snapped out is now back, but anyone who survived the snap could have died in the interim period) but Vision has a potential back-door. It depends whether Shuri took a backup. It's possible that Shuri could use the information she got while working on Vision in IW, and his damaged body, to rebuild him without the mind stone.

Looking at Fox-Marvel characters, the Fantastic Four could be dropped into the MCU at any time. The X-Men remain a problem, unless there's a global surge in Mutants as a result of the energy pulse from the snap - in which case kids entering puberty at the time of the first snap would be in their late teens in the new present. And there's another double-wave of mutation due as a result of the two snaps in Endgame.

Speaking of infinity stones, given what the Ancient One said about the consequences of plucking them from a timeline, what are the implications for the MCU of them having been destroyed? Personally, I like the idea that they're not so much destroyed as scattered, and will coalesce again given time - though the possibility that Thanos actually destroyed the universe in his attempt to prevent anyone from undoing his "saving" of it does hold a certain appeal...


Random thought about Thanos:
Spoiler:
His "you can't save the universe if people know about the deaths" attitude means his philosophy makes no sense - in Infinity War, his position that killing half a population means the survivors rebuild a paradise rather than continuing to consume and expand on the edge of starvation could be justified if you assume that the survivors would change their ways as a result. If you just magically halve the population, with no awareness that there's been any change, then why would people behave any differently? Maybe the end gets postponed by thirty years... So his brave new cosmos would either have required his constant intervention, or have been no better than the original. Either way, it adds weight to the idea that he's a bully lashing out at the universe for letting his people kill themselves...

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:32 am UTC

The more I think of it, the more Fridge Horror I think of:

Spoiler:
Bruce uses the gauntlet to steal half of humanity (and I suppose other species) from 2018 shortly before Thanos snaps his fingers. Per Bruce's explanation, these changes don't affect their present reality, but create some alternative timeline where those events have persistent effects. So in that timeline, half of humanity is whooshed away ... and then shortly after that, Thanos snaps his fingers and converts half of what remains to dust. So for the people living in that timeline,
three-quarters
of humanity just disappeared.

Perhaps those people have their own Avengers who can try to solve the issue just as the Avengers in the main timeline do, but they only have half the number of superheroes. Maybe Banner's gone for them, maybe Lang is, or Danvers.



Edit: it's kind of ridiculous how much money this thing is making, even by the standard of the franchise. The current record in then "Worldwide box office: opening weekend" is held by Avengers: Infinity War with $640,500,000.
Avengers: Endgame made $643,700,000 just up til Friday night. :shock:
Last edited by OP Tipping on Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:10 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
a) Please explain the specific MEDICAL reason for ordering this MEDICATION !
b) Please state the nature of your ailment or injury.
c) One a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your pain?
d) Please state the nature of the medical emergency.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:23 pm UTC

OP Tipping wrote:The more I think of it, the more Fridge Horror I think of:

Spoiler:
Bruce uses the gauntlet to steal half of humanity (and I suppose other species) from 2018 shortly before Thanos snaps his fingers. Per Bruce's explanation, these changes don't affect their present reality, but create some alternative timeline where those events have persistent effects. So in that timeline, half of humanity is whooshed away ... and then shortly after that, Thanos snaps his fingers and converts half of what remains to dust. So for the people living in that timeline,
three-quarters
of humanity just disappeared.

Perhaps those people have their own Avengers who can try to solve the issue just as the Avengers in the main timeline do, but they only have half the number of superheroes. Maybe Banner's gone for them, maybe Lang is, or Danvers.

Spoiler:
People remember having been dusted (and/or seeing people around them dusted) so either they were time-jumped after being picked by the Thanos snap or they were recreated in the present.

A better question is the mechanics of the reconstitution - people appear to have returned where they were at the time they were dusted, so what happened to everyone who was on board a plane in flight at the time? What about if something else is occupying the space now? For it to work at all, you have to assume that position is taken relative to the local planet, but is there also allowance made for putting people back in a survivable position? What about people who were dying/being born at the time of the snap? At what point did a fetus or newborn infant become eligible for being considered independently of its mother? Are there women with a pregnant body rapidly adapting to no longer carrying a baby and a 5-year-old child? Or women who are suddenly 9-months pregnant again? Do people who were dying anyway just get on with dying now that they're "saved"? On average, about 3 people are born and about 3 people die every second, so there would have been tens of people giving birth or dying while the snap was taking effect...

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:12 am UTC

Yeah I keep coming up with other questions...
Spoiler:
Cap was assigned to return the stones right at the point they were snatched. So I guess he has to go to the Sanctum and hand the Time Stone back to the Ancient One, has to go to Asgard and re-inject Jane with the Reality Stone etc ... cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

So did Cap have to go back to Vormir to return the Soul Stone? Does he have a discussion with Red Skull because that could conceivably be awkward. When you give the Soul Stone back, do you also get back the person you exchanged for it? Throw down the soul stone and then Natasha comes shooting back up?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby sardia » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:18 pm UTC

It's an infinity gauntlet, not mean genieGauntlet

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby pkcommando » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:32 am UTC

OP Tipping wrote:Yeah I keep coming up with other questions...
Spoiler:
Cap was assigned to return the stones right at the point they were snatched. So I guess he has to go to the Sanctum and hand the Time Stone back to the Ancient One, has to go to Asgard and re-inject Jane with the Reality Stone etc ... cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

So did Cap have to go back to Vormir to return the Soul Stone? Does he have a discussion with Red Skull because that could conceivably be awkward. When you give the Soul Stone back, do you also get back the person you exchanged for it? Throw down the soul stone and then Natasha comes shooting back up?

Spoiler:
I'm just curious as to how they were able to reinject it back into Jane now that's in stone form. Adamantium cuisinart?

Given what little I caught from Clint's rambling about the Soul Stone and it being irreversible, I'm guessing he already thoroughly checked the return policy.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:32 pm UTC

OP Tipping wrote:
Spoiler:
I was accepting of their model for time travel. Once you make the change, there's a completely different timeline, a different parallel universe if you like, that does not become "your" present. So for mine, I was okay with the Gamora and Thanos aspect. On the other hand, somewhere out there is a universe that continued in which half of humanity suddenly disappeared and stayed gone, when they were all stolen to the universe shown in the movie. Eek. But yeah I think the Steve Rogers thing kind of doesn't obey their own rules. The timeline/universe in which Rogers spends a life with Carter should, by their rules, not be the same one the movie ends in.


Spoiler:
I wasn't taking that as their model for time travel at all. Sure, the timeline would branch off if the stones were not returned.

The stones were returned. There was no branching due to that. There's only two timelines - one where Thanos succeeded, was executed, and the heroes did the shenanigans (the one we watched) and then another where, after the events of Avengers, Thanos vanished from the Cosmos and things proceeded more or less the same to a point, then branched off unpredictably, but less dramatic, as there wasn't some Big Bad orchestrating events behind the scenes - but many of the events didn't need orchestration. They would have played out more or less the same without Thanos's intervention past 2014, except that the Guardians wouldn't have Gamora or Nebula, Peter wouldn't have returned to Earth, and there'd be a lot more Asgardians around.

Thanos existing is necessary for the Guardians to get together, but outside of that - he didn't do a lot of orchestration for the events of Ant Man or Dr. Strange. He wasn't necessary for Age of Ultron. All he did in Thor:Ragnarok was show up at the very very end, he had nothing to do with Black Panther or Spider Man.

Guardians 2 would be different, but hard to say how different. It's not like a key player (or two) vanished on them, Gamora and Nebula would have never interacted with them, making it Peter, Rocket, Groot, and Drax. The events of the first film would likely have played out the same as Ronin was already doing his own thing, either Peter dies or he doesn't during the dance off thing when he grabbed it. So possibly Ego keeps banging people throughout the universe, looking for that heir to his power and never finds one. So, yeah, one group affected. While that's a big deal to them, it's probably not a big deal to the universe.


Meanwhile....

Spoiler:
I just can't help but wonder about the paperwork involved. Assuming everyone came back on the same day (doubtful, but go with it) that means that Peter, who was born in 2000?ish as he's 18ish in Infinity War, is in 2023.. and 18. Even if he was 16, his ID and birth year says he can now drink in the US. There's going to be at least one industry appearing to deal with people who are chronologically five years younger than their birth year suggests - retirement ages, social security payouts, taxes alone as suddenly you have half the population getting a 5 year pass, figuring out how to get property back to rightful owners - if not multiple industries.

I'm not saying it's worse or insurmountable, and a lot of it would have happened anyway even if they'd somehow aged while dusted - I'm just saying that when someone disappears and is declared legally dead, then reappears, there's a whole lot of weird legal shit that happens, and a lot of it is figured out on the fly. Multiply that by half the population and ... courts are gonna be busy as fuck, is all I'm saying.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:27 pm UTC

I'm not sure how old Scott Lang is meant to be but Paul Rudd is 50. Scott has a master's degree in electrical engineering. He must be pretty smart, but somehow they are trying to play him off as kind of a goof ball. Also he seems a bit too old to be agog at Rogers.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:42 pm UTC

Seems reasonable to me to be agog at Captain fucking America.

And some people never get out of the goofball stage. Even with degrees and education.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby pkcommando » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:22 pm UTC

Spoiler:
SecondTalon wrote:Seems reasonable to me to be agog at Captain fucking America.

He is the bearer of America's ass after all.


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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby pkcommando » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:24 pm UTC

I wouldn't have normally considered that a spoiler, but I defer to your discretion on this. Sorry!

Back to the main topic - a random pondering that's been itching in my brain:
Spoiler:
I did like seeing Scott doing more as Giant Man. It does seem a bit convenient, though, that he went from doing very little followed by passing out to now knocking around Leviathans and stomping bad guys. There's far more exertion going on there. I'm wondering if this will get addressed in a future Ant-Man movie, even if it's just as a playful nod. There's 3 scenarios in my mind:

1: The wrap-up of Ant-Man & the Wasp takes place over a period of days, giving him more time to have practiced as Giant Man in controlled settings. Hank could have even made an improvement to the suit with suggestions from Bill Foster,

2: After escaping the Quantum Realm, Scott's suit is seen sparking. While developing the mission suits, there was possibly time to have Tony or Bruce make repairs/improvements.

3: Because Plot! Most likely reason and, if so, I'd love to see them poke fun at in a future Ant-Man movie if the status quo is resumed.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:32 am UTC

Some thoughts regarding Cap's ending

Spoiler:
So I've seen a lot of people criticize it for various reasons and while they are never quite the same things that bothered me, I think the larger point stands- Tony Stark's funeral was the emotional catharsis at the end and tacking on Cap's ending after it didn't quite work. It obviously "had" to happen and I don't necessarily see a better way for it to have happened but still. I think I might've preferred Cap getting zapped to the alternate reality during the fight and finding his way back as an old man that lead a full life.

I have some bigger questions about the minutiae of what actually happened though. Now my assumption is that while he was zipping around that alternate timeline(s) returning stones to their proper place, he also just went to 1945 in that alternate reality to have his date with Peggy and then just spent seventy years with her only jumping back to the main timeline after she passed away (although apparently a lot of people don't agree?). If my interpretation is indeed correct, he must've had some really interesting choices to make- did he try to expose the US government in the 50s when they were recruiting all those "former" Hydra people to staff SHIELD? what did he do about the "local" Captain America who's frozen in the ice? Surely there weren't two of them running around but did he decide to leave him in the ice for over sixty years because he would've been inconvenient to have around? Wouldn't a Captain America with an imperfect knowledge of the future running around during the Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam war, Kennedy assassination or Iraq War(s), etc make for some really fascinating stories? I really can't see him just sitting those out or not acting on what he knows but the kinds of knowledge he has is absolutely going to run smack into some fascinating moral dilemmas.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:31 pm UTC

Cap:

Spoiler:
The problem with the "lived out his life in an alternate universe then came back" theory is that it requires its own handwave (that isn't needed if he was in this universe and just came back the long way): how did he return to this timeline without using the platform, and why didn't he use the platform to come back? Of course, the role of the platform in time-travel is already unclear - Cap and Tony's detour to collect the earlier Tesseract shows that it's possible to move through time without using the platform directly, and both Scott and Janet have previously entered the Quantum Realm without using a platform/portal. The main possibility that remains is that it serves as a beacon to let people find their way home - which only emphasises the problem with the theory that Old Cap came back to his original timeline without using the platform.

Out of character, it all makes sense - Cap turned up on the bench because it allowed a dramatic moment where he appeared to have been lost in time before revealing Old Cap. In character, though, Steve would have had to go out of his way to return to this timeline without using the platform - and for no good reason.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Chen » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:37 pm UTC

Cap ending
Spoiler:
The director confirmed he did live out his life in an alternate timeline and then came back. Why he didn't arrive on the platform, no idea. Bruce does say something about him "missing" his coordinates or something when he fails to get them back.

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/ ... h=f5825282

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Wed May 01, 2019 3:38 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Cap ending
Spoiler:
The director confirmed he did live out his life in an alternate timeline and then came back. Why he didn't arrive on the platform, no idea. Bruce does say something about him "missing" his coordinates or something when he fails to get them back.

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/ ... h=f5825282


Okay. That just breaks things a different way:
Spoiler:
The Q&A is quite clear that going back to the past creates a new timeline - that there's no way to avoid it - so returning the stones wouldn't have saved those timelines - rather it would have created new timelines. Depending on how Cap got between Morag and Vormir, there are now four or five additional timelines where one or two Infinity Stones got returned, plus four timelines where one or two Infinity Stones went missing and weren't returned.

That also means that the Ancient One and Bruce were wrong to say that the timelines could be restored by returning the Infinity Stones.

So who do we believe? The movie's director speaking outside the movie, or the movie universe's expert on time?


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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Chen » Wed May 01, 2019 7:38 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Im going with the assumption you could go back to each of the alternate timelines you created by taking the stones away since that was their plan to "put them back". Presumably they went to very shortly after each stone had been taken and put it back thus not letting it's disappearance affect anything.

Course that brings up the question of whether they could just go back 2 minutes BEFORE they took the stones and there would be another one there. They could just keep duplicating stones (or anything) to their hearts content.

Maybe Cap was smart enough to realize all this and thats why he went "fuck it I'm sticking with my girl since we already irreparably fucked up all these timelines anyways".

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed May 01, 2019 8:25 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Or we could assume creating a new timeline happens only through "time travel" i.e. something that would break the rules of cause and effect. So if in my past I had a choice between A and B, chose A and "travel back in time" to actually do B, I will spawn a new timeline. So, say, going back in time to kill my grandfather as a baby would create a new reality where, among other changes, I will never exist. Then I can travel forward in that alternate timeline (either by just living there or jumping forward) without spawning new ones though because traveling forward in time does not violate cause and effect. So what they did is a spawn a single new timeline where each stone got briefly taken and returned but that isn't their timeline because the action of taking the stones lead to changes like Thanos and his armies disappearing.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Thu May 02, 2019 11:56 am UTC

Watched it last night. Thought it was the worst Marvel movie in years. Such a mess. Boring, lengthy, pompous, at times offensive, senseless... On my phone so will post more later. In the meantime, one question I had:
Spoiler:
Where did Thanos get his reinforcements for the final battle? How are they not all dead? How does Thanos from almost ten years prior have any idea how to contact them or that any are alive? What indication do we have that hits forces are still active at the time? Is there anything in the movie explaining that?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby sardia » Thu May 02, 2019 12:43 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Thanos got the tech from the blue lady when she was captured. Thanos used said tech to bring himself and his space aircraft carrier full of troops to the future. did you not understand when the ship bursted into the air above the final scene? The indications that it's a carrier ship is that other ships will fly into it and they use it as a home base several times for several movies.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Thu May 02, 2019 2:11 pm UTC

Spoiler:
If that's the case then why did he not deploy all his troops at the beginning of the battle? Why just the few small groups? Nothing in the strategy of any of the characters made any sense. Why go to the battle in NY to get the tesseract when apparently it's sitting quietly in a lab for decades and can easily be picked up? Why go at that time to get the time stone when they could choose literally any other time, including when Dr Strange had it? It's not like they actually used the fact they're a team to pick any of these stones up, they immediately split up. Danvers was basically useless after the big deal they made of her. The power levels of everyone involved made no sense. Hawkeye is just a boring character and apparently he's supposed to carry a substantial chunk of the movie. Apparently making fun of a an alcoholic with an eating disorder and PTSD is totally cool, as well? Also they figured since it worked so well last time they're just going to copy-paste the final showdown, as well as the whole "sacrificing a woman in order to get a powerful object" bit.

There was so much bad stuff. There were a few good bits! Thor's conversation with his mom. Carol Danvers' outfit during the funeral was fantastic. But I'm really grasping at straws.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby sardia » Thu May 02, 2019 2:56 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Because he chose when and where to deploy troops. Did those choices make the movie better? YMMV.

Yeah, widow was a travesty, she deserved better. I guess they didn't have time for Carol to bond. Still lame compared to her funnier side in Captain marvel. Yes, she's Superman, with no weaknesses besides an equal amount of power

What's your question again? Like are you asking why thanos doesn't get the tesseract during the 1970s in this movie? Or why didn't he do this earlier? Most stones we're lost until recently. Thanos doesn't know where the stones are. Unless this is a question about why this movie has Stone plothole x? In that case, why would you waste your only time travel on a single Stone?

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Thu May 02, 2019 2:58 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
If that's the case then why did he not deploy all his troops at the beginning of the battle? Why just the few small groups? Nothing in the strategy of any of the characters made any sense. Why go to the battle in NY to get the tesseract when apparently it's sitting quietly in a lab for decades and can easily be picked up? Why go at that time to get the time stone when they could choose literally any other time, including when Dr Strange had it? It's not like they actually used the fact they're a team to pick any of these stones up, they immediately split up. Danvers was basically useless after the big deal they made of her. The power levels of everyone involved made no sense. Hawkeye is just a boring character and apparently he's supposed to carry a substantial chunk of the movie. Apparently making fun of a an alcoholic with an eating disorder and PTSD is totally cool, as well? Also they figured since it worked so well last time they're just going to copy-paste the final showdown, as well as the whole "sacrificing a woman in order to get a powerful object" bit.

There was so much bad stuff. There were a few good bits! Thor's conversation with his mom. Carol Danvers' outfit during the funeral was fantastic. But I'm really grasping at straws.


Spoiler:
Troop deployment takes time. Sending in a first wave immediately while you assemble your main force makes more sense than doing nothing while your main force comes together and hoping the enemy doesn't do anything to take advantage of the extra prep time.

They went for the Time and Space stones when they did because that was when they had an opportunity to go for the Mind stone. They had two stones in the same place, and a third within miles, and making a single trip for all three meant that the teams going for each were in a position to support each other if needed. The three stones were only so close from Loki's arrival with the Staff up to Loki and Thor's departure with the Tesseract. After that, the Mind stone was either in HYDRA custody, or in Vision (with a few days being intensively analysed by Bruce and Tony) and the Space stone was in Odin's vault. The Battle for New York also provided good cover for incidental sightings of them - no-one knew exactly where anyone was supposed to be, but the original six Avengers were around in public, so they're less likely to have their cover blown there than just about any other time.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Thu May 02, 2019 3:40 pm UTC

Spoiler:
It's clear in the movie that every suit needs its own vial of Pym particles for time travel. So why do they need to travel in a group at all? That's the question. I get why Thanos would go to Earth when the Avengers helpfully collected all the stones for him, but why didn't they just go the easiest route of chasing down the stones?

As for the reinforcements, I'm sorry but no, that doesn't make sense. First, because Nebula could have been given instructions to summon them at time X, once Thanos can collect and organize a large number of troops (like Nebula leaves May 2014 or whatever for the future, Thanos tells her to call them back from July 2014). Second, because Earth had absolutely no idea about Nebula's betrayal - even if they didn't have time to prepare in the past, they could have waited a few minutes before starting bombardment, organize all their troops, and attack all at once.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Angua » Thu May 02, 2019 5:55 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The plan was for them to use the stones pretty much as soon as they got them [and then take them back - not sure if this was original plan or not]. Thanos wouldn't have wanted them to have a chance to use the stones and possibly destroy them again, so it makes sense that he would have Nebula bring him straight away.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Thu May 02, 2019 6:03 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Then as I mentioned they could have prepared in advance and just immediately invaded. If urgency was so important, why would Thanos just sit around waiting? Anyway these are all plot holes, of which there are many, but they're not the biggest problem I had with the film.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Thu May 02, 2019 7:26 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
It's clear in the movie that every suit needs its own vial of Pym particles for time travel. So why do they need to travel in a group at all? That's the question. I get why Thanos would go to Earth when the Avengers helpfully collected all the stones for him, but why didn't they just go the easiest route of chasing down the stones?

As for the reinforcements, I'm sorry but no, that doesn't make sense. First, because Nebula could have been given instructions to summon them at time X, once Thanos can collect and organize a large number of troops (like Nebula leaves May 2014 or whatever for the future, Thanos tells her to call them back from July 2014). Second, because Earth had absolutely no idea about Nebula's betrayal - even if they didn't have time to prepare in the past, they could have waited a few minutes before starting bombardment, organize all their troops, and attack all at once.


Spoiler:
The Avengers went in groups so they had backup available if things went wrong. As it turns out, things went wrong in a way that having backup wouldn't help with - Loki escaping with the Tesseract - but it's not hard to imagine circumstances where having some form of backup to serve as a distraction or to otherwise help out would be useful. As it was, Tony and Steve were going for different stones originally before teaming up for the second attempt at the Tesseract.

And, really, what would have been better times to go for the stones? Space and Mind stones were on the move rather than heavily guarded, the Time stone was always going to be guarded by the Sorcerer Supreme whenever they went after it, the Power stone on Morag was less guarded than any time since, largely protected by no-one knowing where it was, the Reality stone was easier to get from Jane than from the Collector, and the Soul stone was another one that could have been collected equally well at any time, so why not on the same trip as the Power stone?


As for Thanos' arrival in the present, maybe you're right that the Avengers wouldn't have noticed an alien mothership punching a hole out through their roof and then hanging in the sky overhead, but I wouldn't bet on it. As it was, arriving, making an immediate strike on the Avengers' HQ before they could react, and then sending in the strike troops to retrieve the Stones from the wreckage seems like a pretty solid plan. If the Avengers hadn't already been armoured and equipped in case of backlash from the Gauntlet, it would have been a pretty easy win, without the need to deploy the bulk of the army (and then do something with them afterwards).

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm UTC

Again, these are just some plot holes in a movie filled with plot holes, where my main criticism is not the plot holes.
Spoiler:
Specifically re the Tesseract, they could have just gone with their plan B, at any point in time, easily getting it without any problem, no need for even a distraction. Time stone - again, why not just go talk with Dr. Strange once he has the stone? That was apparently their plan but they just didn't do their research I guess? They literally had all the time in the world to plan the time heist. The scepter they could have easily gotten by Thor doing a double trip to Asgard (instead of someone else doing a single trip). The soul stone, I'm not sure what other options they had that were reasonable. Really I only have issues with the stones they had trouble with, because they didn't need to trouble themselves. Oh and Nebula's network thing makes no sense - why create a network function for someone who's the sole organism that is setup with that equipment? Don't we always see her physically attached during examinations? That really didn't make sense, but whatever.

As for Thanos's forces, let me try to describe a better timeline. 2014 - evil Nebula goes to the future. Thanos instructs her to bring him and his armies back in 2015. He takes a whole entire year to ready every single bit of his troops. Nebula brings them in to outer space, where obviously we see none of the Avengers were taking a look at. He immediately deploys all forces and kills everyone before they had a chance. Instead Thanos acts as if there is some urgency in attacking immediately, but then decides to just lounge about? He already knows from Nebula that they are powerful opponents, why underestimate them? Why not ruthlessly and mercilessly attack them immediately with all his available powers?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu May 02, 2019 9:08 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Again, these are just some plot holes in a movie filled with plot holes, where my main criticism is not the plot holes.

You say that but then you keep talking about "plot holes" that aren't plot holes but are more MovieSIns level criticisms.
Spoiler:
Regarding the Tesseract, they only knew for sure exactly where it was for the very short duration in time where they actually had physical possession of it so they went for it there. The alternative location was a long shot- Tony inferring that it should have been at a specific military base at a certain point in time but its just a guess. Besides they obviously used it as an option B when it became necessary.

Regarding the Time Stone, they did go to talk to Strange at his Sanctum but none of them knew him well enough to know he's only been the Sorcerer Supreme for a very short time. Anyway, I don't think Bruce Banner had a harder time convincing the Ancient One they needed the Stone than he would have a Doctor Strange that doesn't know what's happening, so what's your complaint exactly?

Regarding Nebula, I think the hardware just had access to both memories. Call it quantum entanglement if you want but its magic space wizard tech either way, its just the way it works. It makes just as much sense as Thanos being able to disassemble her while still keeping her conscious.

You are still not getting it- Thanos has a very short window where he can make a play for the Stones. The Avengers got them and used them in the span of like 15 minutes. What good would it do him to be called there in a month or a year where the Stones are long gone and his plan had long ago been ruined? The rest of your questions also already got answered multiple times so I won't go over it again.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Thu May 02, 2019 9:22 pm UTC

I don't know what "MovieSIns level criticism" means?

Spoiler:
And no, you don't get it. Thanos had months to accumulate his forces back in 2014. He can get everything ready, including, I dunno, millions of flesh-eating beetles and atom bombs, and then when he's ready, when he tells Nebula he's ready, she jumps them to the same moment she did in the movie, and he immediately attacks. Instead she summons him and he just... sits there? And then lets his forces also just... sit there? He could have told Nebula to wait a month, a year, a decade once she got back, get a hold of some extra Pym particles in the meantime, and have Thanos and a bunch of other assassins infiltrate the Avengers' place just before they jump back in time. They wait there until the Avengers get back from their time travel and immediately decapitate all of them and just pick up the stones, or plant a bomb or whatever.

As soon as they chose to do a time travel story, they assured there would be no way to make it make much sense, if the characters are even moderately intelligent. I mean I'm no genius, and it took me about 5 minutes to think about this much better plan that would result in a much lower risk to Thanos and his plan's success.


Edit:
Spoiler:
BTW they used basically this exact same trick in Dr. Strange - he realized with the time stone he has all the time in the world to do whatever he needs to and figure out a solution.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Chen » Thu May 02, 2019 9:59 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I don't know what "MovieSIns level criticism" means?

Spoiler:
And no, you don't get it. Thanos had months to accumulate his forces back in 2014. He can get everything ready, including, I dunno, millions of flesh-eating beetles and atom bombs, and then when he's ready, when he tells Nebula he's ready, she jumps them to the same moment she did in the movie, and he immediately attacks. Instead she summons him and he just... sits there? And then lets his forces also just... sit there? He could have told Nebula to wait a month, a year, a decade once she got back, get a hold of some extra Pym particles in the meantime, and have Thanos and a bunch of other assassins infiltrate the Avengers' place just before they jump back in time. They wait there until the Avengers get back from their time travel and immediately decapitate all of them and just pick up the stones, or plant a bomb or whatever.

As soon as they chose to do a time travel story, they assured there would be no way to make it make much sense, if the characters are even moderately intelligent. I mean I'm no genius, and it took me about 5 minutes to think about this much better plan that would result in a much lower risk to Thanos and his plan's success.


Edit:
Spoiler:
BTW they used basically this exact same trick in Dr. Strange - he realized with the time stone he has all the time in the world to do whatever he needs to and figure out a solution.


Spoiler:
He presumably reverse engineered the Pym particles so that he could bring his army so he already did take time. And he launched a decapitation strike right as he arrived. It was pure luck (well plot fiat anyways) that everyone survived the assault. Cap, Rocket, Hawkeye and Ant man could easily have just been killed outright. Iron Man and War Machine too if they were out of their armor (War Machine almost died IN his armor). Only Thor and Hulk should have been EXPECTED to survive. Hell once he did fight the survivors he curb stomped them (eventually). Its not actually clear WHY he called down his army anyways since he would have won had the good guys not gotten their reinforcements.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu May 02, 2019 10:16 pm UTC

I really didn't like the part where
Spoiler:
I haven't seen the movie yet and so can't partake of this conversation
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Fri May 03, 2019 1:27 am UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
Nebula brings them in to outer space, where obviously we see none of the Avengers were taking a look at.


Spoiler:
Nebula uses the time platform that's in the Avengers' HQ to bring Thanos' forces into the correct timeline. That means bringing them to where the platform is. That's either a small infiltration force, or a large force and a hole in the ceiling.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Jorpho » Fri May 03, 2019 2:41 am UTC

Welp, my expectations were met. I'm sure people will be bemoaning the minutae of the mechanics forever, and it would have been nice if that wasn't the case. But it hangs together well enough, and it's not like the other movies were completely tight either.

Also, if there is one thing clear from comics, it's that Death is perpetually a transient condition.

OP Tipping wrote:
Spoiler:
Harley (the kid from Iron Man 3)
Oh, is that who that guy was supposed to be? I had no clue. (I'm sure most people didn't.)

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Ranbot » Fri May 03, 2019 6:45 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:Welp, my expectations were met. I'm sure people will be bemoaning the minutae of the mechanics forever, and it would have been nice if that wasn't the case. But it hangs together well enough, and it's not like the other movies were completely tight either.

Agreed. It's enjoyable, it generally ties all the preceding movies together fairly well.

There's part of me that wishes they had found almost any other plot mechanic to wrap up the story with, particularly after reading some of comments/exchanges from people in this discussion.
Spoiler:
time travel
The mechanic always creates as many or more plot problems as it solves, but it serves the logistics of making a massive movie-series finale well. Trade-offs, I guess. I never read the source material comic books, but as I understand it the original comics didn't bother themselves too much with plot holes, and we probably shouldn't hold the movies to a higher standard.

Endgame is fun. It's overall well done. It accomplishes the goal of being a finale. Just don't think about the details too hard.


EDIT x2 to remove potential spoilers: I do want to say that I liked Endgame more than Infinity War. For me Infinity War had too many moments of Thanos do ridiculously (literally, ridiculous) powerful stuff that broke the "rules" creating huge plot-holes and questions that killed my willing-suspension of disbelief. Like...
Spoiler:
Thanos was using the stones in minor conflicts and the final battle to change reality, reverse time, destroy a moon to rain down the chunks on the Avengers, make guns shoot bubbles, turning characters into paper-like spirals, etc... that shit is just dumb and makes all the battles and tension feel empty and contrived, IMO.
...I wanted to throw in the towel after Infinity War. I went to Endgame with really low expectations. Endgame, thankfully, is able to pull back from most of Infinity War's nonsense and was better than I expected.
Last edited by Ranbot on Tue May 14, 2019 4:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby OP Tipping » Sat May 04, 2019 5:06 am UTC

Ah ... someone elsewhere has pointed out another confusing aspect or potential plothole.

Spoiler:
Bruce goes to visit The Ancient One to retrieve the Time Stone in 2012.

TAO: I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.

Bruce: With all due respect I'm not sure the science really supports that.

TAO: The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones, and that flow splits. Now this may benefit your reality, but my new one, not so much. In this new branch of reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be overrun. Millions would suffer. So tell me, doctor, can your science prevent all that.

But in 2018, Thanos destroys all the stones. The Earth is a bit shit because of the economic disruption that flowed on from The Snap, but nothing really happens to "The Flow of Time". The Earth is not overrun by the forces of darkness despite the absence of the Time Stone.
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