The Darker Side of the News

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

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ijuin
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Thu May 30, 2019 1:53 am UTC

It’s “prescribed”, not “proscribed”.

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CorruptUser
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 30, 2019 3:50 am UTC

Kinda figured that out, dood.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:24 pm UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG13mzYzBZo

Bunch o' scum are planning a "Make America Straight Again" conference in Orlando on the anniversay of the Pulse nightclub shootings, and calling for the stoning of homosexuals, equating homosexuals with child-molesters, calling for America to be destroeyd and replaced with something more like Nazi Germany, ...

Someone's going to assume I'm exaggerating. There's usually someone assuming I'm exaggerating when I describe the crazy shit I've seen in videos.
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ObsessoMom
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:35 pm UTC

In related news....

Vatican Issues Document During Pride Month Denying Concept Of Gender Identity

Because male supremacist policies depend on clear boundaries between male and female.

Eventually I'll wander over to the original document to see what the Vatican says about why God gives some people non-binary genitals, some of which doctors and parents decide to surgically remove. Not always a decision that the child approves of later.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:11 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Eventually I'll wander over to the original document to see what the Vatican says about why God gives some people non-binary genitals, some of which doctors and parents decide to surgically remove. Not always a decision that the child approves of later.
It only devotes half a paragraph to intersex people.
Congregation for Catholic Education wrote:That said, in cases where a person’s sex is not clearly defined, it is medical professionals who can make a therapeutic intervention. In such situations, parents cannot make an arbitrary choice on the issue, let alone society. Instead, medical science should act with purely therapeutic ends, and intervene in the least invasive fashion, on the basis of objective parameters and with a view to establishing the person’s constitutive identity.
The thing about recursion problems is that they tend to contain other recursion problems.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:12 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:In related news....

Vatican Issues Document During Pride Month Denying Concept Of Gender Identity

Because male supremacist policies depend on clear boundaries between male and female.

Eventually I'll wander over to the original document to see what the Vatican says about why God gives some people non-binary genitals, some of which doctors and parents decide to surgically remove. Not always a decision that the child approves of later.
Oh...It so sad and Wrong.
Now that we have so many of our Brothers and Sisters out of the closets.
We know they are a group that contributes more than their numbers.

I've had Gay friends that were also good Catholics.
It is Crazy for the Vatican to take this stand.

If they keep this up there will be No Catholics.

Oh...You did the reading.
Is it Anti-Gay??

Edit:AHH! LOUDER!! AHH!

Speaking of the Catholic Church;
Did you see The News, Today??!

(I don't remember how to make a clip start where I want it to.)
At 20 minutes and 39 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hsd4vZ9Tis

I trust the source...

Oh! Good Grief!
Can the Church fall any farther!

Nuns raped by priests and forced to abort.
The Nuns think they have committed Sin!

It's Not the Nuns.
It's the Church!

Women have been mistreated for a very long time.
Maybe; Just maybe, women will soon be given choice.

It gets on my last nerve!
Women can't choose but Men can choose for them.

Such Hypocrites!
I'm in a foul humor.
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ObsessoMom
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:39 pm UTC

Not to diminish the enormity of the sexual abuse/abortion hypocrisy in the Catholic Church, but this is widespread in other religious institutions, too. A few hours ago:

CNN: Southern Baptists approve measure to remove churches over clergy abuse

The Southern Baptist Convention approved measures at its annual conference to address an abuse scandal that has rocked the country's largest Protestant church fellowship.

Some 8,000 representatives -- called messengers -- overwhelmingly approved a constitutional amendment Tuesday night stating that churches can be removed from the convention for failing to adequately address sexual abuse or exhibiting racial discrimination. Southern Baptists are meeting in Birmingham, Alabama, through Wednesday.

The constitutional amendment requires approval at next year's convention for ratification.

[...]

For years, the country's 15 million Southern Baptists had largely considered abuse a "Catholic problem," church leaders said. But that changed this year, with a series of journalistic exposes and an internal report that exposed a culture that often showed "indifference" to abuse survivors.

This year,The Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News have published a series of shocking reports about abuse in Southern Baptist circles. About 380 Southern Baptist leaders and volunteers have faced allegations of sexual misconduct, according to the two Texas newspapers, which also found that in the past 20 years more than 700 victims have been abused, with some urged to have abortions and forgive their abusers.


Although there is no abortion connection with this next one, I'll just mention that the past week has also seen a lot of Spanish-language press coverage about accusations of child sexual abuse by the leader of the Luz del Mundo religious movement, which is pretty active in Los Angeles, California. Here's an English-language link from the New York Post:

Mexican church leader charged in horrific child sex ring

LOL, I just found a link to the observations of a religion reporter, amused by the fact that so little seemed to be known about Mexico's largest church:

When Los Angeles police nab pastor of Mexico's largest church, press scrambles to learn about Luz del Mundo

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:54 am UTC

I don't 'get' it.
Why are all these Right Wing Conservatives into Child Sex and Child Porn?

George Nader, a very close advocate of Trump's White House, is in jail again for Child Porn.
What?? Can't he give it up? He is often charged and convicted. He is rarely punished.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... d0c6bcaa6e

...Why does that Right Wing Conservatives bunch accuse people on the progressive side of what they are guilty of?
Remember the stories of Mrs. Clinton having a Child Sex Ring in the basement of a Pizza Place that had no basement?

She didn't have anything to do with such things but these Social Conservatives sure Do!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:17 am UTC

addams wrote:Why are all these Right Wing Conservatives into Child Sex and Child Porn?


There's a meme about right-wing Libertarians always asking "But what if the child consents?" I think there are a couple things going on here. Historically, child marriages were fairly common in the US, and I think some people are just clinging to those tradition. On top of that, libertarian philosophy doesn't really deal with gray areas; I remember when I was a Libertarian I also had a difficult time justifying things like age limitations for alcohol and sex. Because of the deontological nature of that kind of thought, you either realize that the ideology is imperfect and trade-offs between freedoms need to be made, or you just disregard the consequences and focus on the rules which don't allow you to draw a line.

I think there's a combination of people being raised in environments where older men having sex with teenagers is more common, and pedophiles being attracted to belief systems that are not opposed to pedophilia.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:21 am UTC

The people who clamor the most for instituting Thought Police are frequently those who know that their own thoughts need policing, and project their own experiences onto others—i.e. “if I am tempted this much and I know that I am a good person, then how much more must the ‘bad’ people be tempted!”

For example, those who feel homosexual attractions yet do not want to, will jump to the conclusion that it is common for “heterosexual” people to be fighting the temptation to “be gay”, which is where the idea comes that overexposure to homosexual temptation will “turn someone gay”.

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addams
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:10 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
addams wrote:Why are all these Right Wing Conservatives into Child Sex and Child Porn?


Historically, child marriages were fairly common in the US, and I think some people are just clinging to those tradition.

I think there's a combination of people being raised in environments where older men having sex with teenagers is more common, and pedophiles being attracted to belief systems that are not opposed to pedophilia.
Ech...No, Thesh.
Nader's addition to Sexualizing Boys has nothing to do with underage marriage.
ijuin wrote:The people who clamor the most for instituting Thought Police are frequently those who know that their own thoughts need policing, and project their own experiences onto others—i.e. “if I am tempted this much and I know that I am a good person, then how much more must the ‘bad’ people be tempted!”

For example, those who feel homosexual attractions yet do not want to, will jump to the conclusion that it is common for “heterosexual” people to be fighting the temptation to “be gay”, which is where the idea comes that overexposure to homosexual temptation will “turn someone gay”.
Yes.
I think you might have a better explanation, Ijuin.

People that know they need to be controlled want to control others.
People that know what they do is vile accuse others of being vile.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:10 pm UTC

Narcissists are attracted to positions of religious authority. How could they not be?

First off, you get to get the center of attention on a regular basis, with the whole religious community hanging on your every word and deferring to your superiority and offering you special privileges. What's not for a narcissist to love about that gig?

You have frequent contact with vulnerable, gullible, fearful people who can be easily convinced that you, as God's representative here on earth, are not to be crossed in anything. To deny your will is to deny God's will.

You have recourse to a set of religious writings that can help you to portray any accusers as evil liars allied with the Devil, and yourself as unjustly persecuted due to all the good work you are doing in God's name.

You generally have colleagues willing to help you cover up any sort of misbehavior on your part--financial, sexual, whatever--for the good of the institution's reputation. (Their own power and financial support being, of course, dependent upon the institution's good reputation.)

In the case of Christianity, you may sincerely believe that since all humans are inherently sinful, you are no worse than anyone else (women excepted, because they are in a special category of inferiority due to physical/emotional weakness, ritual impurity due to menstruation, guilt due to association with Eve, and repeated Bible verses stating that women should be subordinate to men in all things).

You may sincerely believe that no sin you commit is too big for God to forgive, if you just claim to be really, really sorry about it and throw yourself on His mercy. If you do that, all your sins will be wiped away and you (unlike your victims) will be miraculously free of any adverse consequences.

You may also feel entitled to being forgiven by your fellow Christians "seventy times seven times" (Matthew 18:21-22). There are several convenient Bible verses that preachers following in Paul's footsteps can interpret in a certain light to exonerate themselves from all sorts of unspecified misbehavior, e.g. Romans 14:14. I could go on.

Today's Christian leaders seem unable to see themselves in Jesus's repeated excoriation of religious predators and hypocrites (e.g., Matthew 18:6-7, the entire 23rd chapter of Matthew, et al.). No, no, Jesus was only talking about the historical scribes and Pharisees. I.e., Jews. Not about the future leaders of his own church. Of course not. All that specific talk about phylacteries and tassels and Jerusalem in Matthew Chapter 23 means that it couldn't possibly have applications to Christian religious leaders. Never mind that Jesus typically taught through parables....

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addams
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:27 pm UTC

Oh, ObsessoMom;
You are preaching to the choir.

That was such a well written Post.
It's too bad the people that need to read it...won't.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

Mutex
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:35 pm UTC

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/1 ... ion_tests/

Remember the Boeing 737 MAX fiasco? Where it was discovered that software Boeing had installed on the plane was to blame for hundreds of people dying? Indicating that maybe Boeing's software could not be relied upon in life or death situations? Well, Boeing has decided to... use software to test parts on its planes, instead of physically testing them.

Oh but don't worry, they not using this for really critical parts. Just things like the WINGS. If the computer says the wings aren't going to suddenly snap off, that's good enough for us!

But they have learnt from the 737 MAX, and they're planning to make that whole situation better by renaming the plane. Problem solved!

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:54 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/17/boeing_certification_simulation_tests/

Remember the Boeing 737 MAX fiasco? Where it was discovered that software Boeing had installed on the plane was to blame for hundreds of people dying? Indicating that maybe Boeing's software could not be relied upon in life or death situations? Well, Boeing has decided to... use software to test parts on its planes, instead of physically testing them.

Oh but don't worry, they not using this for really critical parts. Just things like the WINGS. If the computer says the wings aren't going to suddenly snap off, that's good enough for us!

But they have learnt from the 737 MAX, and they're planning to make that whole situation better by renaming the plane. Problem solved!


Using software to do a test rather than a physical test is not in any way similar to the MCAS fiasco. That wasn’t due to badly coded software it was due to bad design decisions, lack of proper training requirements transmitted to pilots and too much FAA delegation without oversight.

The much bigger problem with this is they want to further limit FAA participation. That was exactly ine of the problems with the MCAS issue and they should frankly be crucified for even suggesting that right now. But again that has nothing to do with software vs physical tests.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:10 pm UTC

I didn't say anything about whether it was the coding or design of MCAS that was the problem, and if either is wrong with the simulation software then it won't work either, so I'm puzzled by your response.

No, the bigger problem is that they're planning to test critical parts with simulations rather than by actually physically testing the damn thing, just to save money. That they're choosing money over safety after what happened with the 737 MAX is a pretty good indication that there is no wake up call big enough to make them change.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby speising » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:30 pm UTC

meanwhile, Airbus is planning to remove the human element from the equation and fly without pilots. i'm sure that will make the passengers feel a lot safer!

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:03 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:I didn't say anything about whether it was the coding or design of MCAS that was the problem, and if either is wrong with the simulation software then it won't work either, so I'm puzzled by your response.

No, the bigger problem is that they're planning to test critical parts with simulations rather than by actually physically testing the damn thing, just to save money. That they're choosing money over safety after what happened with the 737 MAX is a pretty good indication that there is no wake up call big enough to make them change.


You implied their software couldn't be trusted and thus their software simulations are not trustworthy and you linked that to the MCAS issue. That is explicitly not what the MCAS issue was. The software worked exactly as intended and designed.

There is nothing inherently wrong about using software simulation over physical tests. As simulations get better they may become more reliable for things compared to physical tests. I don't know if that's the case here but component vibration tests are a good example. These actual physical tests are remarkably finicky. When you overtest and they pass, great all is well. That's uncommon though. Often enough its fiddling with the test setup, manipulating the G levels to be more "representative" and general experience (as vague as that is) that end up getting a test to pass. Running a CATIA model through an FEA instead may well be more representative depending on the case. The assumption that it is a tradeoff between safety and cost is not backed by any evidence.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:12 pm UTC

Using software simulations in place of physical tests is a great idea provided you're only going to fly in the Matrix.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:27 pm UTC

Chen wrote:You implied their software couldn't be trusted and thus their software simulations are not trustworthy and you linked that to the MCAS issue. That is explicitly not what the MCAS issue was. The software worked exactly as intended and designed.

Really struggling to follow your logic here. Do you think a different company provided the design for MCAS?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:31 pm UTC

speising wrote:meanwhile, Airbus is planning to remove the human element from the equation and fly without pilots. i'm sure that will make the passengers feel a lot safer!


You ever watch Mayday? For every Hudson River landing or similar pilot feat of heroics there's like 10 pilot induced accidents, some of them being particularly egregious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mozam ... Flight_470 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokomotiv ... lane_crash , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593). I'll take pilotless planes thanks.

Also don't read those links if you're going on a flight anytime soon.

Edit for Mutex's response

@Mutex, you said

Indicating that maybe Boeing's software could not be relied upon in life or death situations? Well, Boeing has decided to... use software to test parts on its planes, instead of physically testing them.


This is the part I had an issue with. You're linking the MCAS issue with using software simulations. They aren't the same thing, despite them both USING software. Boeing wanting less oversight is the common link between the two, not the fact they're using software in both cases. That was the only point I was making.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:53 pm UTC

Chen wrote:@Mutex, you said

Indicating that maybe Boeing's software could not be relied upon in life or death situations? Well, Boeing has decided to... use software to test parts on its planes, instead of physically testing them.


This is the part I had an issue with. You're linking the MCAS issue with using software simulations. They aren't the same thing, despite them both USING software. Boeing wanting less oversight is the common link between the two, not the fact they're using software in both cases. That was the only point I was making.

Fair enough, plus there'd be completely different teams working on them anyway. It does strike me as incredibly tone-deaf at the very least. You'd think they'd spot the looming PR disaster of this decision.

ETA: Actually it's not just the tone-deafness of this that gets me. It's that after the 737 MAX disasters, the whole company should be endeavouring to radically improve their whole approach to safety. Instead, they do this. It really doesn't instil confidence in me.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby speising » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:07 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
speising wrote:meanwhile, Airbus is planning to remove the human element from the equation and fly without pilots. i'm sure that will make the passengers feel a lot safer!


You ever watch Mayday? For every Hudson River landing or similar pilot feat of heroics there's like 10 pilot induced accidents, some of them being particularly egregious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mozam ... Flight_470 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokomotiv ... lane_crash , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593). I'll take pilotless planes thanks.

Also don't read those links if you're going on a flight anytime soon.


there aren't a lot of fully automated flights yet so we don't have enough data to say they are safer. it'd also be interesting to see statistics how often human intervention corrected machine errrors successfully (which they tried in vain with the 737 max)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:51 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Fair enough, plus there'd be completely different teams working on them anyway. It does strike me as incredibly tone-deaf at the very least. You'd think they'd spot the looming PR disaster of this decision.


Oh fuck yes this is stupidly tone-deaf and terrible from a PR point of view, even if it has good technical merits. That said it appears this was leaked rather than anything officially sent out so I'd really wait to see how far along this actually is. If its a bullet point on their 5 year roadmap, for example, it makes perfect sense.

speising wrote:there aren't a lot of fully automated flights yet so we don't have enough data to say they are safer. it'd also be interesting to see statistics how often human intervention corrected machine errrors successfully (which they tried in vain with the 737 max)


That's a fair point too. It is hard to see the number of times a human pilot prevented a disaster through something less visible than averting a crash landing or somesuch.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby solune » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:58 pm UTC

Chen wrote:That wasn’t due to badly coded software it was due to bad design decisions, lack of proper training requirements transmitted to pilots and too much FAA delegation without oversight.


At this point, I find that hinting even in passing that the pilots might have been partially responsible for this is giving too much credit to Boeing.
They made a bad hardware. They tried to fix it with a bad software. They tried to fix that with a user manual. This kind of mentality needs to stop.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Link » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:37 pm UTC

Jesus Fucking Christ. Anyone who still doubts that the Trump regime shows very striking similarities to Nazi Germany should have a look at what's going on with detention of asylum seekers.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:59 pm UTC

solune wrote:At this point, I find that hinting even in passing that the pilots might have been partially responsible for this is giving too much credit to Boeing.
They made a bad hardware. They tried to fix it with a bad software. They tried to fix that with a user manual. This kind of mentality needs to stop.


The fault lies entirely with Boeing but what I wrote is still correct. The mitigation they had for a single failure leading to a hazardous aircraft condition was that the pilots could override it. This is an acceptable mitigation...IF YOU TELL PEOPLE ABOUT IT. That the pilots should have recognized this new failure mode and used an existing emergency procedure to counter-act it (treat it as a runaway trim scenario) is ridiculous without any training or information TELLING the pilots about this new feature.

Had this been declared to pilots and the appropriate training mandated, it still wouldn't have been a optimal system (IMO but to be fair I don't know all their fault trees), but it would have met appropriate safety guidelines.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:12 pm UTC

Link wrote:Jesus Fucking Christ. Anyone who still doubts that the Trump regime shows very striking similarities to Nazi Germany should have a look at what's going on with detention of asylum seekers.
Of course I found something that act as a thorn in my heart.
Like any thorn it will create a hard spot.
The detention center in Dilley is run by CoreCivic, a company that contributed $250,000 to President Trump’s inauguration. Another owner of detention centers, GEO, gave $225,000 to a Trump PAC prior to the election and an additional $250,000 to the inauguration. CoreCivic, a flourishing business, has a $1 billion contract with Homeland Security. Lost in all this talk of detention centers is the enormous profit that goes to these corporate Trump supporters who benefit from jailing immigrant mothers and children.
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Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby idonno » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:47 pm UTC

addams wrote:
Link wrote:Jesus Fucking Christ. Anyone who still doubts that the Trump regime shows very striking similarities to Nazi Germany should have a look at what's going on with detention of asylum seekers.
Of course I found something that act as a thorn in my heart.
Like any thorn it will create a hard spot.
The detention center in Dilley is run by CoreCivic, a company that contributed $250,000 to President Trump’s inauguration. Another owner of detention centers, GEO, gave $225,000 to a Trump PAC prior to the election and an additional $250,000 to the inauguration. CoreCivic, a flourishing business, has a $1 billion contract with Homeland Security. Lost in all this talk of detention centers is the enormous profit that goes to these corporate Trump supporters who benefit from jailing immigrant mothers and children.
I Know what they are saying is True!
I had done nothing except write words that were not approved of.
I was arrested and put in an IceBox on a Hot Summer's Day.

It was a miserable experience.
...I was only held One Day!


I wonder if the long term plan is to "allow" these detainees to work for less than minimum wage like we do with prisoners. We can have our anti immigration policy, our cheap migrant labor, and let political supporters make a killing in the process.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:14 am UTC

What the fuck is with the camps denying people SOAP? I'm not in favor of unrestricted immigration, but even criminals should have access to SOAP.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:48 am UTC

They’re also being denied any form of toilet or latrine at times, apparently with the intent of making them soil themselves.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby PAstrychef » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:03 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:What the fuck is with the camps denying people SOAP? I'm not in favor of unrestricted immigration, but even criminals should have access to SOAP.

People requesting asylum aren’t criminals.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:43 pm UTC

(sigh---) I watched some of the Court proceedings.
It is a crying Shame.

The attorney for the Administration argued that Sleep, Toilets, Toothbrushes were Not enumerated by the court order, so those things are not required.
Then, I listened to a story of three 12, 13 and 14 year old girls were staying awake in turns to take care of a sick two year old boy.

The boy had No diapers and none of the girls were prepared to care for a sick toddler.
If there are no changes more babies will die, other children will see it and not forget.

Is that the Point??
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quercus » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:52 pm UTC

PAstrychef wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:What the fuck is with the camps denying people SOAP? I'm not in favor of unrestricted immigration, but even criminals should have access to SOAP.

People requesting asylum aren’t criminals.


For the avoidance of doubt, PAstrychef isn't referring here merely to an opinion or a matter of current practice. This principal was enshrined in the 1951 UN Refugee Convention, as ratified by the USA as part of the 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees. Criminalising the seeking of asylum is against international law.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:17 pm UTC

addams wrote:The attorney for the Administration argued that Sleep, Toilets, Toothbrushes were Not enumerated by the court order, so those things are not required.

What makes that statement doubly stupid is that denying the detainees sleep generally requires deliberate effort toward that end by those overseeing them—conditions deliberately worse than merely being made to lie on the floor/dirt without blankets.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:18 pm UTC

I hope the Court tells them. "You must provide Soap, Warm Water, Towels, Clean Clothes and Privacy! as well as a Bed and Toilet."
(crap...) Those people are also going to need Diapers, Toilet Paper, Feminine Hygiene and Food.
Spoiler:
(sigh...) Many woman may have quit have monthly bleeds due to malnutrition and stress.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:14 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:What the fuck is with the camps denying people SOAP? I'm not in favor of unrestricted immigration, but even criminals should have access to SOAP.

People requesting asylum aren’t criminals.


The point is we shouldnt be treating them worse than criminals. It's not too important a point but technically, unauthorized immigration is a misdemeanor for the first offense. AFAIK, most of the people in the detention centers were caught inside the US and not at the border. Am I misinformed?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Link » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:05 am UTC

Or -- hear me out here -- whatever alleged "crimes" they may or may not be guilty of shouldn't even factor into this, because it's no way to treat human beings, period.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quercus » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:24 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
PAstrychef wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:What the fuck is with the camps denying people SOAP? I'm not in favor of unrestricted immigration, but even criminals should have access to SOAP.

People requesting asylum aren’t criminals.


The point is we shouldnt be treating them worse than criminals. It's not too important a point but technically, unauthorized immigration is a misdemeanor for the first offense. AFAIK, most of the people in the detention centers were caught inside the US and not at the border. Am I misinformed?


Assuming that these are not people who are refusing to leave after having their asylum claims assessed and denied (and further assuming they have not lodged an appeal or exhausted the appeals process) then once they have claimed asylum they are*not* unauthorised immigrants they are *asylum seekers*, which cannot be a criminal status by UN treaty as I explained above. NY times magazine indeed claims that most of the people in the camps are asylum seekers. ICE itself appears to recognise this - otherwise it would surely be deporting these people, not detaining them. AFAIK there is no requirement to present oneself at the border in order to claim asylum - the law recognises that entering the country through the normal channels may not be possible due to the circumstances which would cause one to seek asylum (i.e. fleeing for your life).

This is important because the US government is trying to present this as a "zero tolerance" approach to asylum seekers. A position which, on the face of it, seems indefensible under international law.
Last edited by Quercus on Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:33 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:29 am UTC

Link wrote:Or -- hear me out here -- whatever alleged "crimes" they may or may not be guilty of shouldn't even factor into this, because it's no way to treat human beings, period.
Yep.
That's what the Judges said.

You are as wise as a panel of Judges.
Spoiler:
As bad as we can be, we are better than this!
This crap has Got to Stop!


Quercus;
Your link didn't work.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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