Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

[Bakemaster]

Spoiler:

The line "i will kill you" is beyond cliche.

Spoiler:

No more than "I love you" or "Hello" are cliche.

[Izawwlgood]

Spoiler:

One technique: Blood bending. Katara is NOT messing around with ending zuko's fate.

[Aesar]

what's with the spoilers on already broadcasted episode info?

ontopic: do you guys also think that Toph > Katara?

[pieaholicx]

what's with the spoilers on already broadcasted episode info?

ontopic: do you guys also think that Toph > Katara?

Not everybody has seen every episode, so all spoilers should be in spoiler tags.

Depends on what we're going for here. In terms of uh...vision, I think Katara wins. Also in um...waterbending? And uh...being responsible?

[Belial]

The spoilers are mostly because, initially, this was a thread for talking about how cool the series is, for those who have seen it and those who haven't. Kindof a "Seriously, you guys should watch this show" thread.

It's kindof turned into an episode discussion, though.

As for Toph vs Katara....

Spoiler:

I did enjoy how, in episode 3-12, Toph was the only one who actually let her brain win out over the irrational hatred of zuko.

[pieaholicx]

Oh, and before Aleril says it, Toph is hotter.

[Belial]

Bleh. Still 12, guys.

[pieaholicx]

Bleh. Still 12, guys.

Still hotter. When they finally become adults, guess what? Toph will still be hotter.

[Aleril]

Bleh. Still 12, guys.

Still hotter. When they finally become adults, guess what? Toph will still be hotter.

Agreed.

Katara is just not hot in anyway.

[Jesse]

I disagree, maybe because I associate Katara with Girl.

But Toph isn't really particularly attractive. Reminds me of hobbits.

[Belial]

I disagree, maybe because I associate Katara with Girl.

Oh? Why? Girl cosplays Aang....

[Izawwlgood]

In an equal playing field of rock and water, I'd say Toph has it, but the advantage could shift to Katara if there was a full moon.

[Belial]

Oh, if you were proposing a fight between the two, in a place with a ready and large supply of water....

Katara, fighting dirty, could ruin Toph's world.

All she'd have to do is keep the earth under toph's feet too muddy and soft for her to see. Or keep her lifted off of it with jets of water. Keep her truly blinded. And then wreck her at your leisure.

Of course, I don't know that it would even occur to Katara to exploit someone's weaknesses like that.

[Girl™]

I disagree, maybe because I associate Katara with Girl.

::points to sig::

Maybe it's time to change my avatar, after all... I have a great picture from this years AUSA of sad-street-urchin Aang. "Please sir, my I have some more...?"

[Belial]

Dude, do it.

[Izawwlgood]

Thats all true and fine, but we forget that Toph

Spoiler:

BENDS METAL

!!!

Spoiler:

METAL!!!HOLYCRAP!

apprently you can't nest spoilers.
So maybe the point is they're evenly matched? Katara

Spoiler:

sent a tsunami of ice daggers

at sparky-sparky boom man. Thats pretty hardcore.

[Belial]

Thats all true and fine, but we forget that Toph

Spoiler:

BENDS METAL

!!!

That's true, and it is hardcore as hell, but it's not much use against a waterbender. And she hardly displays the same level of control over it that she does over, say, rock and dirt. She mostly just warps and contorts it, as opposed to moving it around or sculpting it to her will.

I'm not contesting that Toph is the better bender. She is. Hands down. She just has some pretty huge weaknesses (mostly just the one) that could easily be exploited to take her down despite her skill.

[Izawwlgood]

Agreed. I suppose I should also add that Katara can, if push comes to shove

Spoiler:

BEND PEOPLE!!!

We've all seen Conan the Barbarian. That said, Mei vs Suki?

[Aesar]

I agree that Katara could give Toph a hard time, but

Spoiler:

mud contains earth

and what if

Spoiler:

Toph just went underground and attacked Katara from there.

Only thing Katara could do is

Spoiler:

staying of the ground, maybe on some layer of ice.

but

Spoiler:

she can do that anywayz

so that

Spoiler:

Toph can't see her

[Belial]

I agree that Katara could give Toph a hard time, but mud contains earth.

Doesn't matter. Toph sees through vibrations, and has been demonstrated to lose visual acuity on softer ground. Remember how the sand in the desert made her vision all blurry? I'm willing to bet mud would pretty much blind her.

[pieaholicx]

She might be slightly blinded by it, but she has been known to bend mud anyway. I can't remember what episode it was, but I remember her instantly shooting all the mud off of her. Or was that dirt, I don't fully remember right now.

Either way, Katara could win if...

Spoiler:

she told Zuko that his life depended on burning Toph's feet again.

[Belial]

Oh, yeah, she can bend it. She just can't see using it. But yeah, anything that takes toph's feet off the ground or makes the ground unsuitable for seeing would give Katara the advantage. Hell, just encase them in ice and you'd be doing well.

[Aesar]

But don't forget katara is never fast enough to make the first hit. Really, She needs to transport water near Toph first, whilst Toph can start right away. And I think (Tophs earthbending skills)/(Katara's waterbendings skills) > 1. Probably even > 1.2

[Belial]

Yeah, and like I said, Katara wouldn't ever think to fight dirty like that, so it's kindof moot. Toph would wreck her.

Actually, I think Katara is probably the weakest bender in the group now.

[Aesar]

Agreed. Even Sokka is better at bending logic. Really, this guy is challenged. Doesn't mean he's unimportand for the group tho!

[Belial]

I dunno. Sokka makes a big deal about how lame he is in comparison to benders, but I don't think it's actually true. As the benders have been getting more powerful through the series, he's been getting more and more badass with his weapons. He can do some truly ridiculous things with that boomerang, and there have been quite a few scenes that have had him fighting two-handed with the boomerang and his war club that were just inspiring.

And then...

Spoiler:

Once you factor in the crazy starmetal sword that can cut metal, and his training with same, I think he holds his own pretty thoroughly

I'm working on a BESM D20 adaptation of Avatar, for tabletop roleplaying, and one of the things I'm looking at is how much I'm going to have to soup up the fighters to make them equal to the benders, because I think they *do* sortof come out equal, they just aren't as well-respected.

Edit:

Spoiler:

Added thought: Just to drive the point home, I would be *really* entertained if Azula had Suki killed, and it was Sokka who ended up taking Azula down. I'm imagining a scene kindof like the fall of Kreia in KotOR 2: She goes to lightning bend or do some absurd fire attack, and Sokka just cracks her in the head repeatedly until she can't see straight.

[Jesse]

I disagree, maybe because I associate Katara with Girl.

Oh? Why? Girl cosplays Aang....

I know, but I just mentally associate the two. Not a clue why.

[Aesar]

In reply to Belial

Spoiler:

I don't think the Suki/Azula/Sokka thing will happen like that. It would be awesome the way you described anywayz, but it's too 'dark' for the series. At least for the series so far. Really who has died? Even Zuko's mother is alive.

[Belial]

Spoiler:

Yeah, disappointing though it is, you're probably right. The only real deaths so far have been villains (Zhao, mostly), and Jet.

[une see]

I feel like if Katara had more water to actually bend with, she would seem like a better bender. Toph generally has the entire area that they're fighting on to bend with, and so does Aang. The firebenders, of course, don't need anything. That scene where Katara was at the North Pole, fighting Pakku, was pretty badass, and she wasn't even that good then, so I think if Katara had lots and lots and lots of water to work with, she could kick ass. But I do agree that she's probably the weakest bender in the Aang Gaang, since Toph and Aang are both bending prodigies. Katara has to work harder at bending; it doesn't come as naturally to her as it does to Toph and Aang.

But meh. If it's a question of who I like better, I think both of them are rather annoying sometimes. Katara's way too uptight about everything, and I think she way overreacted last episode. And Toph is a little too irresponsible, too contrary. Aang also sometimes annoys me. My favorite character is probably Sokka.

[Izawwlgood]

I just watched the Beach episode again

Spoiler:

(strangely, some of the best action hands down combined with some 10 year old angst. "I'm angry at myself!")

, and i'm convinced Zuko and Azula are going to duke it out at the end of the series.

[Geekthras]

With the Katara vs Toph thing, don't forget that

Spoiler:

Toph can blind her with a dust cloud, so it could even out somewhat, with them both just fighting blind.

[cephalopod9]

Spoiler:

Added thought: Just to drive the point home, I would be *really* entertained if Azula had Suki killed, and it was Sokka who ended up taking Azula down. I'm imagining a scene kindof like the fall of Kreia in KotOR 2: She goes to lightning bend or do some absurd fire attack, and Sokka just cracks her in the head repeatedly until she can't see straight.

If you remember Day of Black Sun

Spoiler:

Azula said "until she gave up on you". I'm kind of thinking Suki might have switched sides. It seems to me Suki would be more valuable alive than dead, and Azula, while sociopathic, doesn't seem like the type to kill needlessly. Setting it up so Sokka has to fight Suki would be way more evil.
I also kind of don't forsee Sokka snapping like that. Maybe it's just to show, but he didn't hurt Azula at all when Toph had her pinned to the wall.

And as for Katara vs Toph

Spoiler:

Katara is older and more thoughtful, but doesn't like fighting. I would say in terms of flat out skill, she has the upper hand. Toph doesn't have anything in the way of Katara's healing abilities, and in general, Katara's technique seems more elaborate and elegant (opinon of course). Toph also can't much defend against airborne attacks, and we've also seen in the most recent episode, her feet are a huge weak point. If Katara covered Toph's feet in ice, I don't think there's much she could do. (That would be really really mean tho', so I'm not sure Katara could do it.) You'll also recall, in Puppet Master, Katara could <i>counter</i> blood bend. When Hammas tried to blood bend her, Katara was able to blood bend her back.
However, Toph is more into hurting people (Blind Bandit!). For an in character fight, she would probably take things further.

Also

Spoiler:

I like the new Zuko! Something I've been wondering about, why did he have the shaved-pony tail hair style in book one? No one else anywhere in the Firenation seems to have that...

At the same time, I don't think anyone's anger at him is unjustified (except maybe Aang, it kind of seemed like he just wanted to get out of learning to fire bend.) I mean, from Katara's perspective he already went through the whole "I want to be good" routine, and followed it with "haha, no" and threw fire at her. Toph on the other hand, drank tea with his uncle, and did not have her family torn apart by war with the fire nation.

Toph is adorable, but I have to say, I think it is wrong to want to get with a 7th grader. I'm sure she will be pretty and just as nice when she is of legal age. (It bothers me when fan arts of older Toph make her all skinny and tall. That just does not seem like an earth bender physique to me, and as I have been 4'10", since about age 14, I kind of think extremely short girls grow up into extremely short women)

[Nimz]

Spoiler:

I like the new Zuko! Something I've been wondering about, why did he have the shaved-pony tail hair style in book one? No one else anywhere in the Firenation seems to have that...
(some other stuff)

Something I've been meaning to say for a while now (regarding the short skit at the end of Fire ep. 1) that this kind of reminded me of: Zuko no chibi wa kawaii desu yo! I realise that that's wrong, linguistically, for a couple of reasons (original language is English, not Japanese, and the cultural setting seems more Chinese than Japanese - I'm not even sure I pieced it together correctly), but it had to be said.

In reply to Belial

Spoiler:

I don't think the Suki/Azula/Sokka thing will happen like that. It would be awesome the way you described anywayz, but it's too 'dark' for the series. At least for the series so far. Really who has died? Even Zuko's mother is alive.

Spoiler:

Yeah, disappointing though it is, you're probably right. The only real deaths so far have been villains (Zhao, mostly), and Jet.

Spoiler:

But they actually showed 'combustion man' explode onscreen - there might be a little room for such 'darkness'

[/optimism] *error: optimism set to ALWAYS ON. You cannot fix this in the User Control Panel*

[Aesar]

cephalopod9:

Spoiler:

Toph can't only see wih her feet, but with her whole body , as long as she touches the ground with it. How else could she make it to katara with her burned feet in WAT.

and furthermore

Spoiler:

I also think there will be a nice Zuko vs Azula fight in the seasons final (which will be 4 episodes long!)

[pieaholicx]

And as for Katara vs Toph

Spoiler:

Katara is older and more thoughtful, but doesn't like fighting. I would say in terms of flat out skill, she has the upper hand. Toph doesn't have anything in the way of Katara's healing abilities, and in general, Katara's technique seems more elaborate and elegant (opinon of course). Toph also can't much defend against airborne attacks, and we've also seen in the most recent episode, her feet are a huge weak point. If Katara covered Toph's feet in ice, I don't think there's much she could do. (That would be really really mean tho', so I'm not sure Katara could do it.) You'll also recall, in Puppet Master, Katara could <i>counter</i> blood bend. When Hammas tried to blood bend her, Katara was able to blood bend her back.
However, Toph is more into hurting people (Blind Bandit!). For an in character fight, she would probably take things further.

Spoiler:

1. Age and skill are sometimes exclusive traits. In the case of bending, this is usually true. Remember when Zuko beat Zhao in their fight? Yeah, I'd say that age doesn't dictate who's better.
2. The healing abilities take time and concentration. Toph is aggressive enough to take advantage of Katara's attempts to heal to catch her off guard. Katara would probably realize this, and decide against healing.
3. Katara's technique is more elaborate and elegant, but that's just waterbending. Waterbending is designed to be an offensive bending, which focuses not on straight attacks, but in turning your opponent's force against themselves.
4. Of course Toph can't defend against airborne attacks, I mean no earthbender in their right mind would push themselves underground (not even Bumi did in that one episode), or lift a large piece of rock over themselves (like most earthbenders). No way they can guard against airborne attacks.
5. Covering Toph's feet in ice probably wouldn't do much. As somebody mentioned, she can feel with all her body, and I'm sure the vibrations will travel through the ice just nicely anyway.
6. Katara will not blood bend. The only reason she did it was to save Sokka and Aang, and even then she hated herself for it.

[Belial]

Something I've been wondering about, why did he have the shaved-pony tail hair style in book one? No one else anywhere in the Firenation seems to have that...

I think the bald part was just his personal choice of hairstyle. The topknot is a fire nation nobility thing, though, which is why

Spoiler:

He and Iroh cut theirs off when they went renegade at the beginning of book 2

[Aesar]

you come up with some good points pieaholicx. I want to emphasize that watertribe healing takes time, so I don't think any bender would heal h[im/er]self during battle. It's not like wolverines healing...

[Izawwlgood]

Spoiler:

I'm surprised you say that earth benders can't defend against aerial attacks. We've seen time and time again Toph and other earthbenders shooting airborn rocks. We've seen Toph somehow know where those rocks are and blow them out of the sky. We've seen Toph pull ledges of rock OVER her, around her, around others...

We could probably do this vs. thing from a martial arts perspective. Tai Chi beats H'ung Gar.

Spoiler:

Suki "Giving up on you" doesn't mean she's switched sides, it means she no longer believes Sokka will come to her rescue. According to Azula, which means Suki's probably escaped and is out causing problems for the fire nation.

[Belial]

Except that Toph doesn't use H'ung Gar like most earthbenders. She uses the mantis style that I forget the name of.

Really, the bending styles are all balanced against each other, the creators set out to do that pretty explicitly.