Crappier games being released?

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby aion7 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:18 am UTC

Isn't Baroque a remake? I think I read that in the latest Game Informer.

But anyway, the SNES has the best selection of RPGs. Turn based and action. From E.V.O. to Chrono Trigger.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Slice84 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:46 am UTC

Yeah, Baroque is a remake of a late 90's PS game, it never saw the light of day here in the states though. It seems like a pretty compelling game to me though.

I do have to agree with the SNES argument though. Chrono Trigger remains one of my all-time favorite games, and there are also a slew of Japan-only translations that I really enjoyed playing. I'll always have a soft spot for good 2D sprites.

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Gelsamel » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:18 am UTC

Yeah, amongst my favorite games are...

Chrono Trigger
Seiken Densetsu 3
Star Ocean
Tales of Phantasia

All on the SNES.

Edit: I especially love how DeJap translated ToP.
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby aion7 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:39 pm UTC

Yeah. Chrono Trigger is tied for the title of my all time favorite game. Tied with Diablo II. But then there are Final Fantasies IV through VI, which, in my opinion, were the best ones. V had the best class system, and VI had the best story, and characters. IV was not quite as good as VI, but it was still not very lacking in the plot department, and the characters were cool. Also we got one of the best quotes in video game history from it. "You spoony bard!" There were also things like E.V.O. The Search For Eden. Actually there was just one thing like that. Itself. However, Spore seems to be fixing the problem that there hasn't evolution based action RPG in quite a while. That's not to mention all the other wonderful RPGs that came out for the SNES. It was purely awesome, except for all those Double Dragon and Street Fighter clones.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:46 pm UTC

I'm noticing this weird trend in this thread, where some people like some things in games, but other people like other things in games. How scary a concept is that!?

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby FACM » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:22 pm UTC

Another trend: people who played games long ago look more fondly on them than modern games, whereas people who have only recently played older games don't always get why they're so great. I suspect nostalgia is a big factor in this debate.

Beyond that, you should also notice that the market has changed quite a bit, and the companies have shuffled around to match (to some degree). You get more short games in genres dominated by long games because the average age of videogamers has increased. When you core demographic is 16, you can afford to make every game 40+ hours, because your consumers don't have much else to do. When your average consumer is 24, they'll have jobs and responsibilities taking up far more time, and they will usually prefer a shorter game (or, a long game which they can play in short bursts that still result in some satisfaction. Having 3 hours of gameplay between save points when you only have 2 hours to play a game tends to get people frustrated.)

In my contribution to moving this thread away from an SNES lovefest (not that it's a bad thing, just keeping on topic), I'm going to say that I think most modern games are less crappy than older games. I personally hate Baldur's Gate, and everything derived from the engine. That engine is wholly intolerable. I've only heard good things about Planescape, and I did play it longer than BG or ToEE, by about an hour, but even moving around in that engine makes me want to play something else. When someone remakes Planescape in the Neverwinter Nights engine, I'll give it a proper play.

I liked Morrowind when it came out. It was the only game I bought that summer. I was in high school, and had no other responsibilities beyond saving the people of the island. I liked Oblivion, and especially appreciated the improvements that allowed me to move faster and not spend hours wandering when I wanted to achieve something. Wandering was still an option, but the fast movement was welcome by me, and I'm sure others who were more interested in the story than killing yet another wandering bandit felt the same.

I'm tempted to say that newer games suffer more from derivative sequels than older games, but I'm not certain that's entirely true. If we ignore the big, nearly eternally stagnant game lines (Final Fantasy, Zelda, that'd be you.) and look more at recent games/IPs, we might get a better idea. GTA (the 3D ones, anyways) sticks to a core gameplay and engine as it continues to refine and enhance it, and manages to tell a story (that doesn't change too much)in the process. Halo doesn't bring as much new stuff in each installment, gameplaywise or storywise, but there is a heavy focus on refining multiplayer. GoW is less about story or strategy, and more about feeling like a total badass for following QuickTimeEvents and some random trash between bosses. DMC is similar, but with more ranged combat.

Modern games, for the most part, seem to have the general idea of gameplay down, and work more towards refining gameplay towards perfection and encompassing a specific feeling out of a series. Older games tended to experiment more with what they could do within limitations, and this created both standout games (Crono Trigger) and things that quickly fell into obscurity (Planescape counts here. It's more of a cult game than a breakout hit because it put a focus on social functions and story than combat, which is why Baldur's Gate is mentioned more often despite sharing an engine).

Why is gameplay more important than story? Because you can go to any other media for a story. Interaction is the unique point of video games, and developers will try to work it to perfection. If you want a really complicated narrative, there are books. If you prefer having ideas expressed to you visually, there are TV shows and movies. If you need to see things change around you because of your actions, even if that change is limited to "score goes up, next wave of aliens swoops down," video games are what you want.

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:45 pm UTC

I disagree with you on the narrative. There are stories that are told in games that cannot be told to the same effect as in any other media. I'm thinking of the Silent Hill games in particular, where though the narrative flows smoothly for you, the player, behind the scenes is a web of "Did player perform X before attempting Y? If YES, Run R, If NO, Run T, if Partially, Run S"

It's hard to pull off which is why it's so rare to see it. Planescape would have made a terrible book. Eternal Darkness would be a shitty movie (What, do you play it three times in a row and just subtly change things every time until you hit the real End?)
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Belial » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:55 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:I disagree with you on the narrative. There are stories that are told in games that cannot be told to the same effect as in any other media. I'm thinking of the Silent Hill games in particular, where though the narrative flows smoothly for you, the player, behind the scenes is a web of "Did player perform X before attempting Y? If YES, Run R, If NO, Run T, if Partially, Run S"

It's hard to pull off which is why it's so rare to see it. Planescape would have made a terrible book. Eternal Darkness would be a shitty movie (What, do you play it three times in a row and just subtly change things every time until you hit the real End?)


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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:57 pm UTC

I'll try, but gods man... it's going to hurt.

A lot.

I expect billions of dollars*



*I'm defining "billions of dollars" as "don't devour my flesh"
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Belial » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:58 pm UTC

You drive a hard bargain.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby FACM » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:12 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:I disagree with you on the narrative. There are stories that are told in games that cannot be told to the same effect as in any other media. I'm thinking of the Silent Hill games in particular, where though the narrative flows smoothly for you, the player, behind the scenes is a web of "Did player perform X before attempting Y? If YES, Run R, If NO, Run T, if Partially, Run S"


If you want to kick the soccer ball at the alien mothership's master computer, turn to page 24.
If you want to use your best friend as a shield from incoming laser file, turn to page 86.
If you want to start singing, turn to page 2.

It has been done before. It can be done. It just doesn't work well if the consumer isn't expecting it. Choose Your Own Adventure books were fairly popular for a time and then died, and interactive movies were pushed at one point as the future of cinema. (They fell through with movie-goers. Some video games, however, certainly feel more like movies than games.)

It's hard to pull off which is why it's so rare to see it. Planescape would have made a terrible book. Eternal Darkness would be a shitty movie (What, do you play it three times in a row and just subtly change things every time until you hit the real End?)


And both examples, while awesome games, didn't sell all that well. The companies making games want to profit, and will lean towards more commercially successful methods. Hopefully, they'll work towards making the more successful games more unique and get more people accustomed to non-standard narrative styles, but that will be gradual at best. Most of the experimental stuff will have to be picked up by smaller studios, which if successful will get bought up and end up making subsequent products more like the rest of the mass market products. The chance that the mass market copies their ideas exists, but that would pretty much dilute the uniqueness of the idea, making it another cliche in an environment already full of them.

I suppose I'm fairly moderate as far as the "Games as Art" idea goes. I'd like to see more things push the boundaries and makes games stand out as a credible media. On the other hand, I'm also ok with games being solely for entertainment as long as they're good. Good can mean a lot of things here, but bland, repetitive, derivative, and frustrating are not part of that definition. And by some definitions, a game won't really be art until the mechanics behind the game make you consider difficult questions and ideas instead of the story overtop those ideas.

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:34 pm UTC

FACM wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:I disagree with you on the narrative. There are stories that are told in games that cannot be told to the same effect as in any other media. I'm thinking of the Silent Hill games in particular, where though the narrative flows smoothly for you, the player, behind the scenes is a web of "Did player perform X before attempting Y? If YES, Run R, If NO, Run T, if Partially, Run S"


If you want to kick the soccer ball at the alien mothership's master computer, turn to page 24.
If you want to use your best friend as a shield from incoming laser file, turn to page 86.
If you want to start singing, turn to page 2.


Choose-Your-Own Adventure books were never smooth. Bite sized paragraphs followed by choices that often times seemed to follow no internal logic. And the choices are always far too extreme in nature (Follow the pirate choice always has you boldly following the mysterious pirate.. there's never a "Follow him, but keep an eye out for his friends and get the hell out of there if it starts to go bad" option)

A good video game has you making decisions all the time without you realizing you're making a choice. When the stranger walks into the alley, you chose if you want to follow him. and if you do, the game unfolds one way. Often times you don't even realize you had the option of hanging out and waiting until the bus shows up and the stop.

But you're right, both Planescape and Eternal Darkness sold poorly. The shit that pushes boundaries always sells poorly. Though it's a different industry entirely, comparing the video game industry to the comic book industry works on certain levels. The same crap gets regurgitated over and over on the mainstream level, with the critics ranting and raving about how excellent these titles you've never heard of or saw a time or two and decided against. Years and years later, they're still ranting and raving about how excellent they were while the mainstream titles finally catch up to what the boundary pushing stuff was doing five or ten years ago.

I've yet to play Bioshock.. I hear a lot of really great stuff about it, but when I played the Demo I saw a streamlined version of System Shock 2... which, since it was all made by the same people and it's supposed to be a spiritual sequel it makes sense... but one was a niche title, the other enjoys far more mainstream success. And it seems to me to have been simplified in ways that hurt the game more than help (I liked being able to haul around food for when I really needed it, not just scarfing it right there)

Every now and again I hear rumblings about various RPGs being so advanced because the NPCs have daily schedules or something. I think the Gothic series was the latest one to get that praise, though I know Oblivion got some as well... and their LifeSimulations are often less advanced than the one Ultima 6 used... eighteen years ago.

It's fine that there's games that are pure carnage, and that the story is an afterthought, if even present. At no point have I ever cared about the story of the Unreal Universe after I stopped playing the original. I play the tournament games, and there's the Skarj or whatever they're called, and undead guys and robots running around with egyptian guys for some reason... and I don't care. I'm there to blast the hell out of things and run people over in a hoverbike. When I played Halo, the only thing I really cared about was shooting things in the face. Yeah, there was a story there, but it wasn't gripping enough for me to pay attention to it and that's fine. To go back to the comic comparison, I also enjoy reading several Superhero books.

I don't play Half-Life for the story, and I don't read Superhero books for a thought-provoking story. If there happens to be one, great! If not, I'm fine with that too...

But that doesn't mean I'm going to say that all comics and all video games are incapable of telling gripping, thought provoking stories, or that other media are better suited to the task. There are things games can do that no other media can. Just like comics.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby hobo386 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:39 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I remember playing Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, FF3, FF7, Demon Crest, Super Metroid, any Zelda game before Ocarina, etc, etc, and being UNABLE to put them down.

Now I find myself lacklusterly going through Blue Dragon. Circle of Doom is boring.
What happened to the good RPGs? Its like everything I've played in the last few years could only hold attention for about 10-15 hrs, then just sort of fizzled by not delivering anything.
Any recommendations?

I have an xbox 360, which I bought for Mass Effect, which I didn't like because of the clunky combat. I really enjoyed FF12, but felt the storyline was pretty lame in comparison to 7, 8, or 10. (with 8 being fairly lame in my opinion.)

Let me see, I am pretty much going to go some through good rpg/rpgish games since the N64 (some of the pc ones might be , I forget.)
Baldur's Gate 1 + 2
Planescape:Torment
Darkcloud 1 + 2
Atelier Iris 1
Ogre Battle 64 (more tactics than rpg, but an epic story)
Jade Empire
Odin sphere
Xenosaga 1+3
Otogi 1 + 2 (more action than rpg)
I'm probably forgetting something.

Other than that, traditional RPG's have been a bit lacking recently. Some of those games were even only mediocre. I would recommend some older games as well, such as Earthbound and Secret of Evermore, but if you enjoyed Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger, you probably enjoyed these too already.

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:50 pm UTC

EARTHBOUND! Thats what I gotta get and try.

I don't want this to be interpreted as a SNES lovefest, I merely put those games up as comparison titles for what I still find entertaining. Chrono Trigger and FF3 and Secret of Mana to me are games that did it right, and yes, a degree of nostolgia is involved, but more so in the sense of finally discovering something that made me think "AHA! THIS is what it should/could be all about!" and as standing up as the golden standard by which many, many games have fallen short.

Otagi looked pretty interesting. Ill have to give it a go.

I find the story element of a game, regardless of its genre, to be PIVOTAL to keeping my interest. While I'll agree that game play can more then make up for a shoddy story, and that some games aren't played for story purposes (missile command knock offs still make me giddy, and its not like Rock Band needs all those stupid extras, for example... Just give me songs, i don't care about avatars or where I'm playing the gig!), it really is about using the videogame as a medium for conveying an idea, a tale, and if I'm not sold on the story or the characters, why am I giving my time up? When the story is good, I'll overlook some mechanical issues (clunky menus for example), when the game play is phenomenal, I'll overlook cheesy voice acting.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby FACM » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:23 pm UTC

Most of your points I agree with. I was pressed for time, and didn't get everything I wanted to into that post.

SecondTalon wrote:But that doesn't mean I'm going to say that all comics and all video games are incapable of telling gripping, thought provoking stories, or that other media are better suited to the task. There are things games can do that no other media can. Just like comics.


I didn't mean to imply that video games cannot tell a good story. I mean to imply that they aren't currently, and it's not likely that they will tell a single story better than any other media. Video games are much better at telling multiple stories, but doing this correctly is something most developers haven't grasped. Fable and Bioshock are examples of this. An interview with the Bioshock devs shows that the 2 endings were essentially a last minute decision, and that they weren't real pleased with how it turned out. Fable was worse, with somewhere betwen 50% and 100% of which ending you got was decided by your last action in the game.

This is a shame, as this shows that most developers are treating the strongest part of video game's storytelling ability, the interactivity and branching results thereof, as a novelty and not actually using it to its fullest while claiming to be groundbreaking and phenomenal and other marketing-centric words. The backlash against poorly done branching probably causes some developers to shy away from it, and to focus on one story path. My example here will be Oblivion.

I personally think Oblivion's story would have been much better as a movie or a book. It would have allowed for a greater insight into the character. I didn't feel particularly thrilled to be the reluctant heir's errand boy, but I would likely feel much more sympathetic for them in an environment where I could examine the character's motivations and desires beyond "I'm doing task X because it moves the plot forward and I get treasure Y." It could be a work showcasing the need to serve your nation, the redemption of a treasonous criminal, or a treasure hunter learning there's more to life than shiny things. What makes Oblivion succeed as a game is that you are capable of completely ignoring this and finding other stories to tell. You can participate in the fall and rise of the assassin's guild, conquer opponents in the arena, or journey through hell and back for powerful artifacts, to be used to conquer cities back home. In this way, Oblivion shows off the strong and weak points of video games as a storytelling medium.

Games don't have to tell a story. Space Invaders was rampantly successful without any kind of plot. But, these games don't qualify as art the way that the 6 O'Clock News or a church pamphlet don't qualify as art. They have a more defined purpose, and seek to achieve it as well as possible. The lack of narrative or implied meaning in a game effectively removes itself from comparison to the traditional arts. Few would justify comparing Lord of the Rings to Rampart. Even then, a video game that tells a good story won't get nearly the recognition a book or movie telling the same story would, and much of that is because of the limitations in treating several million people as the main character. You either have to have so much freedom and so many options that the money and time budgets are spent on tiny details, or railroad them into a limited set of paths so that everyone can see what you want to express.

As much time as I spend on games like Geometry Wars, I would like there to be more artsy games. I would like developers to take more risks when possible. Sadly, this generally means that studios will rely on sequels for profits and try experimental things with their spare budgets that didn't go into making the next sequel even more sequel-tastic. Voting with my dollar will only cause so much change in the industry, and I certainly can't write a game worth playing on my own. The most I can hope to do is convince other people of the point I'm trying to make.

Just to make sure I've been reading this right, our points are pretty much "Video games are excellent media for narrative" versus "No, they aren't, but could be", correct?

And, finally, has anything I've said helped to explain whether or not more recent games are more or less crappy than old games?

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Amnesiasoft » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:53 pm UTC

After rereading some posts in this thread, I have to ask, where on earth are these games that supposedly have "40+ hours" of gameplay. The only games I've played that take that long to beat are the ones that decide "hey, wouldn't it be an awesome idea if we don't tell the player, or even give them the slightest hint of what they are supposed to do next in the story?"

Also, on the stories in games argument. Go play The Longest Journey, now.

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Narsil » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:19 pm UTC

A lot of these games artificially extend the gameplay with sidequests that aren't fun. Oh sure, I could play this awesome main story dungeon and have an immersive, challenging experience yet miss out on these other 20 hours of game, or I could help this guy deliver a loaf of bread from one end of the world to another. And then I could repeat, ad nauseum, to get back those 20 hours promised to me.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:21 pm UTC

Or some games just deliver naturally good stories that take about 30-50 hrs to beat. Or have side quests that ARE enjoyable.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Narsil » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:40 pm UTC

It doesn't happen a whole lot. Tales of Symphonia was one game that did this right. The side quests felt just as epic as the story, and in fact one has you fighting a character more powerful and more horrible than the main boss.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Indon » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:38 am UTC

Heh, yeah. I'd done a couple sidequests in the latter half of that game without even realizing they were optional, and it was only from Wikipedia that I learned that I could easily have had a different party configuration than I did.

Edit: Mind, you did get all kinds of choices, but I always did the in-character, gung-ho, fix-all-the-worlds-problems-right-now-by-force choices, so I just assumed the game was going as it should.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Solid Freeman » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:36 am UTC

Pandercolour wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Any recommendations?

Baldur's Gate. Have you played it? If not, what are you waiting for? GET IT. If you get BG 1, 2 and Throne of Bhaal, that's a good four years of RPG goodness because you'll be playing it again and again.


I highly recommend Icewind Dale if you like Baldur's Gate, NWN, or R.A. Salvatore books. :wink:
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Celestial » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:51 am UTC

I do agree with there being crappy games now because I tried playing that free mmorpg called Shaiya and I was highly irritated of how the character leveling and quests worked , not to mention the noobs that do not even know how to play mmorpgs!!!! its new but I would atleast expect people to know what a tank is, and that mages cannot tank...and that priests are there to heal you!!

Theres a growing breed of free mmorpgs but is it really worth the time? or the money on those special items you have to buy to keep the server up hmmm ...

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby JayDee » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:07 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:I've yet to play Bioshock.. I hear a lot of really great stuff about it, but when I played the Demo I saw a streamlined version of System Shock 2... which, since it was all made by the same people and it's supposed to be a spiritual sequel it makes sense... but one was a niche title, the other enjoys far more mainstream success. And it seems to me to have been simplified in ways that hurt the game more than help (I liked being able to haul around food for when I really needed it, not just scarfing it right there)
Man, I had fun when BioShock came out. Not that I've played it, but I frequent another forum full of people who worship Looking Glass, and so all I heard about BioShock was how it didn't live up to System Shock 2 (which wasn't as good as System Shock, naturally.)
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:56 pm UTC

Celestial wrote:I do agree with there being crappy games now because I tried playing that free mmorpg called Shaiya and I was highly irritated of how the character leveling and quests worked , not to mention the noobs that do not even know how to play mmorpgs!!!! its new but I would atleast expect people to know what a tank is, and that mages cannot tank...and that priests are there to heal you!!

Theres a growing breed of free mmorpgs but is it really worth the time? or the money on those special items you have to buy to keep the server up hmmm ...


A tank is a mechanical machine that replaced calvary on the battlefield. Mages are based on Gandalf who clearly knew his way around a sword. Priests hang out in churches and pray.

JayDee wrote:Man, I had fun when BioShock came out. Not that I've played it, but I frequent another forum full of people who worship Looking Glass, and so all I heard about BioShock was how it didn't live up to System Shock 2 (which wasn't as good as System Shock, naturally.)


I liked SS2 better, but whatever I suppose.

...most developers are treating the strongest part of video game's storytelling ability, the interactivity and branching results thereof, as a novelty and not actually using it to its fullest while claiming to be groundbreaking and phenomenal and other marketing-centric words....


Pretty much. I keep hoping that the open style of the GTA line will catch on... but it seems the only thing people got out of that is that explosions and mass mayhem sell. .. which.. misses the point completely.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Kawa » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:52 pm UTC

Here's some game recommendations. They are not 'traditional RPGs' per se but instead tactical or action RPGs, which is where I'm finding a lot of love lately.

Disgaea's a ton of fun, and they've rereleased the impossible-to-find original for the PSP, now with more classes and extras. I believe there's also a snazzy sequel out for the PS2. Monster Hunter Freedom (and its sequel) are fantastic, if you're up for slaying dragons and using their parts in a complex system of equipment upping and such. I'm also looking forward to Patapon, but I only recommend that if you also happen to like rhythm games (which I do.) [Note: My boyfriend owns a PSP that I regularly steal, which is where the three games above factor in.] The guys who made Disgaea are also making a game called Mana Khemia - I don't know what its gameplay will be like, but it looks good, it's advertised as an RPG, and I believe it's for PS2.

And if you're really hankering for a traditional RPG, don't disown the newest (main) Pokemon series, Diamond/Pearl. They've solidified (and diversified!) the gameplay a LOT with the phsyical/special attack split and other things. It's advertised as a "kiddie" game but honestly I can't see it that way with they amount of depth they've put into its mechanics.

...I'm a handheld gamer. Can you tell? XD
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Chrismclegless » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:48 pm UTC

Solid Freeman wrote:
Pandercolour wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Any recommendations?

Baldur's Gate. Have you played it? If not, what are you waiting for? GET IT. If you get BG 1, 2 and Throne of Bhaal, that's a good four years of RPG goodness because you'll be playing it again and again.


I highly recommend Icewind Dale if you like Baldur's Gate, NWN, or R.A. Salvatore books. :wink:

Yes, Icewind Dale is good. It has got a very linear storyline though, which can be annoying after playing something like BG2, which for the first half is 'go out and earn money' and there are far more ways of doing it than you will need - hence the replayability. Icewind Dale 2 was a disappointment though.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Rook » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:27 am UTC

Star Ocean 3 is definitely the greatest RPG I have ever played. Truly awesome story, likeable characters, decent voice acting, and a really immersive battle system that plays more like Devil May Cry/Vagrant Story than the classic "line up three abreast and pick your actions from a menu" style of RPG combat. And one of the best parts was additional unlockable difficulty levels! True, it sometimes got annoying hacking your way through a reasonably easy game (followed by a more satisfying playthrough) just to get to the highest difficulty level, but by God it worked. My first time, I played it two and a half times through in a row before having to give it back to my friend, and I loved every minute.

Technically, I never really finished it; oh, I beat the main story, but there were two or three sequel quests which were solid, but so much fun, that I never quite finished. I really should buy my own copy and play it again. *wistful sigh*

FFXII, I can't much comment on, except to say that I liked the battle system*. I don't much like the way Basch was retconned from being the 'main' character during development, but after a couple of hours it becomes almost painfully obvious that he still is, since Vaan is frequently shunted to an out-of-focus background, when he's on camera at all during cut scenes. L-O-L.


*My lack of ability to comment is due mostly to the fact that I bought the game last summer, then moved to University without my console a mere 2 months later. I barely got halfway through [I think]. D'oh.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:38 am UTC

SO3?! Guh, I HATED that game! Maybe my standards were too high because of SO2, but jeezums, are you SERIOUS?!

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:45 am UTC

Rook wrote:the classic "line up three abreast and pick your actions from a menu" style of Eastern RPG combat.


Fix'd it for you.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Rook » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:50 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:SO3?! Guh, I HATED that game! Maybe my standards were too high because of SO2, but jeezums, are you SERIOUS?!

Sorry, not to be a dick...

Wow, if that comparison is even half accurate, I've got to give Star Ocean 2 a go. And yes, I was being serious. Granted my repertoire of RPG experience isn't vast, or even fairly sized by most accounts, but still. Grandia (1) came in at a very close second, for having an great story, a fair number of voiced cutscenes, and those little character face graphics next to almost every piece of dialogue. Grandia II however sucked balls. Combat system was an awful bastardisation of the previous one, and the male lead was, frankly, a dick. Not to mention an uninspiring, cliched storyline.

Oh, and
SecondTalon wrote:
Rook wrote:the classic "line up three abreast and pick your actions from a menu" style of Eastern RPG combat.


Fix'd it for you.

thanks.

No, really*.


*Sincerity means "really really".
Last edited by Rook on Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:56 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:53 am UTC

Rook wrote:Oh, and
SecondTalon wrote:
Rook wrote:the classic "line up three abreast and pick your actions from a menu" style of Eastern RPG combat.

Fix'd it for you.

thanks. No, really*.
*Sincerity means "really really".


Should...... should I go ahead and be all "No fuck U!" or... ?

Hah hah... but yeah, it's fascinating how differently the Eastern and Western RPGs evolved...
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby The Ethos » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:53 am UTC

I'm curious in part what growing up has to do with the decline of the JRPG. When I was in grade school and early high school, I felt like I could sit down and bust through Chrono, FF6, FF7, FF8, 9, whatever. 10 was the first time I really felt....bleh...about beating/playing through/dealing with a JRPG....it's never really stopped since then.

I actually really got into other forms of RPG about that time too, from tabletop to KotOR style....Fallout....Morrowwind/Oblivion....Pretty much any RPG that WASN'T traditional RPG.

I tried to play Dragon Quest 8 when it came out, but Kingdom Hearts 2 (a VERY nontraditional RPG) stole all my attention. For this reason, I'm much more excited about FF13 VS then I am normal FF13.....

Does growing up ruin your ability to play traditional JRPGs? I don't know. I will say that games that allow movement and action rather than stationary line battle...just seem so much....better...to me now.

/P.S. Don't give me that ALL JRPGs have good story. Adventure games have good stories....FF, DQ, etc...all they do is move the location of the line fight.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:13 am UTC

The Ethos wrote:I tried to play Dragon Quest 8 when it came out, but Kingdom Hearts 2 (a VERY nontraditional RPG) stole all my attention. For this reason, I'm much more excited about FF13 VS then I am normal FF13.....



Have you played KH1? As a KH1 fan, KH2 was a bit of a disappointment, so you might like KH1 even better.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby FACM » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:53 pm UTC

The Ethos wrote:I'm curious in part what growing up has to do with the decline of the JRPG. When I was in grade school and early high school, I felt like I could sit down and bust through Chrono, FF6, FF7, FF8, 9, whatever. 10 was the first time I really felt....bleh...about beating/playing through/dealing with a JRPG....it's never really stopped since then.


I suspect it has something to do with getting out of high school. Not meant to be mean, but it seems like that's around the time that most people get bored with JRPGs and find other games more interesting. It might have something to do with finally playing games long enough to find better alternatives more than getting older automatically makes random battles dull [They were always dull. Some people just put up with them more than others.]

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Narsil » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:01 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
The Ethos wrote:I tried to play Dragon Quest 8 when it came out, but Kingdom Hearts 2 (a VERY nontraditional RPG) stole all my attention. For this reason, I'm much more excited about FF13 VS then I am normal FF13.....



Have you played KH1? As a KH1 fan, KH2 was a bit of a disappointment, so you might like KH1 even better.

I wouldn't call it a bad game, but I will say that I've never played an 80 hour game that told less of a story. And still, miraculously, raised more questions than it answered.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby JayDee » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:42 pm UTC

FACM wrote:
The Ethos wrote:I'm curious in part what growing up has to do with the decline of the JRPG. When I was in grade school and early high school, I felt like I could sit down and bust through Chrono, FF6, FF7, FF8, 9, whatever. 10 was the first time I really felt....bleh...about beating/playing through/dealing with a JRPG....it's never really stopped since then.
I suspect it has something to do with getting out of high school. Not meant to be mean, but it seems like that's around the time that most people get bored with JRPGs and find other games more interesting. It might have something to do with finally playing games long enough to find better alternatives more than getting older automatically makes random battles dull [They were always dull. Some people just put up with them more than others.]
My thought was that it's less getting older, and more having played a bunch of JRPGs. I mean, it's not age but rather how many you've played.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:01 am UTC

JayDee wrote:My thought was that it's less getting older, and more having played a bunch of JRPGs. I mean, it's not age but rather how many you've played.


What he said. I was basically done with the JRPG style before the 6th grade.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby akashra » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:28 am UTC

I used to buy quite a lot of games - Lemmings, Wing Commander, plenty of first party Nintendo titles.

In the last 12 months I've bought Metroid Prime 3 (which I haven't played much of), Command & Conquer 3 (which again, I stopped playing soon after buying) and Supreme Commander (which okay, has been what I fill time with). In the next 12 months only one game interests me: Spore.

The quality of games being released has definitely declined.
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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby zenten » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:46 am UTC

akashra wrote:I used to buy quite a lot of games - Lemmings, Wing Commander, plenty of first party Nintendo titles.

In the last 12 months I've bought Metroid Prime 3 (which I haven't played much of), Command & Conquer 3 (which again, I stopped playing soon after buying) and Supreme Commander (which okay, has been what I fill time with). In the next 12 months only one game interests me: Spore.

The quality of games being released has definitely declined.


I just play video games less. This for me has nothing to do with the quality of them.

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Re: Crappier games being released?

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:02 pm UTC

Yeah I was going to say...


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