MMO Recommendations?

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MMO Recommendations?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:39 pm UTC

I play EvE and love it. I would like to try something new, both to expand my horizons and for those frequent times when no one else is on EvE and I don't feel like being a solo-monger. I also hope to get my girlfriend into one of these games.

I tried Tabula Rasa and dug it, but felt the game is largely unfinished and frankly not going anywhere.
I've been reading up on Lineage and EQ (the newer ones).

What I'm looking for:
-true reliance on multiplayer, I don't want a solo gig.
-a true economy, I enjoy crafting classes and non-combatant classes as well
-character development that doesn't necessarily require 'optimal' paths.
-good availability of support classes, and enough flexibility or game design to allow for innovative character use (i.e., Knights should not ONLY be tanks, mages should not ONLY be glass-cannon DPSs)...

Any suggestions?

EDIT: People have mentioned WoW. Don't mention WoW. It doesn't fit a single criteria I've laid out.
Last edited by Izawwlgood on Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:11 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

I've heard good things about City of Villains, but I don't know that it has much of an economy or whether there's any crafting. It's not a very traditional MMO.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby pieaholicx » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:51 pm UTC

The crafting system was added well after the game's creation, and seems to be kind of second rate. The items are helpful, but you can probably go without them.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:18 pm UTC

I played CoH and CoV more than any other MMO.

There is no content at the high levels, and the missions are very repetitive.

I had 3 level 50's and a set of "Equipment" (Its not your traditional eq, its more like buffs to your powers) that was godly. It cost millions and millions of influence (= money) Lots of rare items.

Then you realize there is nothing to do.


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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:19 pm UTC

But I would add that, it has the best character creator of any game.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

Perfect World does pretty well in that department too, only in the physical features department rather than clothing and costumes. The facial customization is especially good.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby FACM » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:01 pm UTC

I've heard Pirates of the Burning Sea feels like EVE-lite. There's no free trial as far as I'm aware yet, but I think there are buddy keys if you know someone else who bought the game. I've been curious about it, but I'm trying to wait to actually try it out first.

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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Indon » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:15 pm UTC

Lord of the Rings Online is what I've been playing lately - mechanically, it's a lot like WoW, so it's pretty solo-able, but many classes work way better in groups and there are many quests which are hard to solo. And unlike WoW, the game isn't just a race to max level so you have fun (If anything, reaching max level is more interesting than most things you do there, unless you want to raid).

Furthermore, the player economy is surprisingly robust, though not as intricate as that of EvE (mostly because you can't have PvP-enforced cartels). Crafted items are generally equal to if not superior to items that can be obtained from questing.

I play a support class in the game (a jack-of-all-trades type) alongside a dual-wielding DPS'er and a ranged DPS'er. We have neither the traditional tank or healer class, but we've gotten along fine so far. Some classes seem more versatile than others, though. As for character build options, I haven't seen any 'required' stuff yet, and I find the method of attaining character customization options ('virtues', specifically) to be fascinating.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Felstaff » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:44 pm UTC

Clearly World of Warcraft is the forerunner in the MMO world. Don't get me wrong, I love Eve and Lord of the Rings, but WoW just...has it all. Good Soloing, good grouping, epic story, great for raiding, is highly rewarding, minimising on farming, very social, very polished (maybe not so much in the graphical department)

I like LotRO better, because I feel it's more immersive and takes itself more seriously. Saying that, an hour on WoW is an absolute blast.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Matthias » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:40 am UTC

Sorry, guy, but I'm gonna have to call you on a few things.

Clearly World of Warcraft is the forerunner in the MMO world. Don't get me wrong, I love Eve and Lord of the Rings, but WoW just...has it all.

Except the ability to change your class and truly customize your character. Each class has like, three tweaks that you can pick from, and each one will be either a) identical to the majority of everybody else or b) kinda cruddy.
Good Soloing,
If you're a hunter or a warlock.
good grouping,
If you know somebody already.
epic story,
Which the game will dangle in front of your face but never actually tell you about.
great for raiding,
After you spend a few months maxing your level.
is highly rewarding,
If you like fake money.
minimising on farming,
Insofar as you never actually plant crops, yes.
very social,
If you already know somebody and/or are fond of rampant douchebaggery.
very polished (maybe not so much in the graphical department)
Except for everything I just talked about.
I like LotRO better, because I feel it's more immersive and takes itself more seriously. Saying that, an hour on WoW is an absolute blast.
And after your first ten levels, will accomplish absolute zilch.

So yeah, except for the content, WoW is pretty good. Yes, I'm bitter. Yes, I'm sure you can find holes in everything I said. No, I don't care.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Felstaff » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:57 pm UTC

Wow. Time for a riposte to that last brutal destruction of my post!

I'm with you on the "truly customise your character" part - there are, compared to other MMOs, limited options in terms of your character's appearance. But with two genders, each with eight races, each with ten hairstyles, each with ten face options, each with ten skintones, each with up to six classes... That is a lot of options. I've yet to see 2 characters who are identical in every way. So, no, you can't do an Elder Scrolls and choose "length and build of nose" or whatever, but in all respect, that's not a major downfall.

This is because your character is seen more for the gear he/she wears than his/her hairstyle. And the items in the game are, according to my lootlink, well over 100,000. There is an infinite combination of clothing and armour, and most sets have a very distinctive look. With this unlimited choice of armour, there's very little in your "truly customise your character" argument. In this game, if you want to truly customise your character, you have to go out and work for it, not simply choose it in an option screen. And by "work", I mean "play" because you still "play" WoW. If you want to grind and work hard, it's your choice.

So, yeah, you can customise your gear to your heart's content.

Good Soloing,

If you're a hunter or a warlock.


I don't even know why you wrote this. Hunters and Warlocks are really fun, right? So is being a Mage--immense power, ability to take on groups at a time (6 of your own level if you're adept enough) which is all amazing fun. And what about rogues? The ability to stealth and sneak in to places other have to fight their way through? That's brilliant fun! And Druids, too, they can take on the form of beasts. Now that's customisation. The only lesser-fun characters are warriors, because it's all simply hit-as-hard-as-you-can, and priests, because they're chiefly for helping other characters (I'm a selfish gamer). That's not to say they're not appealing to everybody, just me. So, once again, the appeal of this game is far wider than just me or you.

good grouping,

If you know somebody already.


Yeah, you're either an unsociable gamer of you've come across some intense douchebaggery. My real-life friends who play WoW aren't on my server, so I started, like most people, not knowing anybody. So here's where a little word called sociable sets in. You meet people. You help them out, they help you out. You strike up a conversation. You add them to your friend list, you chat with them and generally be sociable. They do likewise and you become friends. There are 9 million people playing this game. I came across a few guys when I was level twenty-ish, in a group. I needed help. They helped me out, I joined their group. We got chatting, we got questing, we spent all night having fun. In the end we formed our own guild. The youngest member was 15, the oldest was 47, and the rest were 20-30. We had so much fun I wondered why I had waited for so many months to get this game (this was in 2005). Since then, as people have come and gone, the same sort of thing can happen--and does happen--every time I want it to happen.

epic story,

Which the game will dangle in front of your face but never actually tell you about.


What? Seriously, what? "Never actually tell you about?" I'm sorry, I don't generally follow "lore" per se, so it's not like I buy a bunch of Warcraft Encyclopaedias and find out every iota of Azerothian history, but I've managed to pick up a pretty solid (epic, some may say) knowledge of the lore of Warcraft. I haven't gone looking for it. I stumble across books and tomes in places, with a few pages you can read. I listen to NPCs tell me about it. So, yes, you do get fractions and fragments of information--but you use your powers of logic and reasoning to, I don't know, put it together yourself.

great for raiding,

After you spend a few months maxing your level.


Well, obviously. If you want to raid, then you max your level. Give me one game where you can open the box and play end-game content without working for it. That, I feel I shouldn't really need to point out, is the mechanics of games--any games--you start out small, and end up big. And there's a lot of playing in between. You don't have the cojones, you don't raid. Simple. I used to raid, when I had time. Now I have a job and responsibilities I choose not to raid. There is nothing you can possibly complain about regarding this, so why on earth did you?

is highly rewarding,

If you like fake money.


I'm not talking financially. The game is a rewarding experience. You feel like you achieve stuff. A lot of stuff. The more you play, the more you achieve.

minimising on farming,

Insofar as you never actually plant crops, yes.


Farming in this context, I mean "killing NPCs to get a certain piece of loot", not literally farming with hoes n' stuff.

very social,

If you already know somebody and/or are fond of rampant douchebaggery.


Feels like I'm banging my head against a wall here. Yes, there are douchebags. You know what? We should sue Blizzard on account of the calibre of its gamers. OR, we could use the ignore button and socialise, in-game, with people we actually get along with. (You don't have to know them in real life, you know! You can talk to normal people in game and not know their actual names!)

And after your first ten levels, will accomplish absolute zilch.


You can always accomplish level 11?

Anyway, yes I have found holes in everything you said. I'm glad that you don't care because we can consider the matter closed now and your rant effectively debunked, without need for further argument.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Nya » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:11 pm UTC

If you like PvP, wait some months and play Warhammer Online.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Jack21222 » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:49 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I play EvE and love it. I would like to try something new, both to expand my horizons and for those frequent times when no one else is on EvE and I don't feel like being a solo-monger. I also hope to get my girlfriend into one of these games.

I tried Tabula Rasa and dug it, but felt the game is largely unfinished and frankly not going anywhere.
I've been reading up on Lineage and EQ (the newer ones).

What I'm looking for:
-true reliance on multiplayer, I don't want a solo gig.
-a true economy, I enjoy crafting classes and non-combatant classes as well
-character development that doesn't necessarily require 'optimal' paths.
-good availability of support classes, and enough flexibility or game design to allow for innovative character use (i.e., Knights should not ONLY be tanks, mages should not ONLY be glass-cannon DPSs)...

Any suggestions?


I've spent a few days in Pirates of the Burning Seas, so allow me to apply your criteria to the game.

Reliance on multiplayer - For the RvR combat, multiplayer is essential. Port battles are 25 on 25. Most of the missions (quests) can be done solo though.

True Economy - Very much like Eve, less reliance on farming, but it's a true player economy

Character development - A ton of different spec lines, but only 3 different classes per nation, and pirates.

Availability of support classes - Well, there are only 3 classes per nation and then the pirate class for the pirate nation. However, each class has dozens of spec combos to choose from, and none of them have been called "the best" yet. For example, I just respecced my Privateer from a lot of DPS abilities to a lot of debuffing abilities.

It may be worth checking out.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Toeofdoom » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:22 pm UTC

Honestly, I'd have to say eve has a far better realised world than WoW. But WoW is a more entertaining game.

As for expanding your horizons, I think most other MMOs currently out there really arent that great. Personally I'm looking forward to stargate worlds, which certaintly could be a big one, and has scientists and archeologists as their own playable classes.\

Unfortunately, I really don't know how it will turn out, and release is set for like, Q4... Also you may need quite a PC to play it on.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby The Ethos » Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:45 pm UTC

Matthias wrote:snark


Don't feed the trolls. As far as MMOs go, WoW is still king, love it or hate it.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Wolf » Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:54 pm UTC

I just want to say that you shouldn't play FFXI. I mean, it has a great art style, but that's about it. You can't solo even if you want to after level 10 (well you can, but you won't get very far), and it takes hours to get anything done in that game (just making a group can easily take you over 30 minutes (at least until you get established in a linkshell, which never really happened for me)). And it's a huge grindfest, with not a whole lot of plot to take it anywhere.

It does have one thing you might like, which is that you can switch jobs on one character really easily. So if you want to try another job out, just go back to your mog house and switch. And while I never got the impression individual jobs were particularly flexible, subjobs let you twerk the main job in all sorts of odd ways (want to be a white mage with some monk capablilties? Go for it!).

Although, if you really want to, there's probably a free trial out there you could try. Some people love it. I'm mostly bittersweet. If I ever try to get back into it, I like it for a tiny bit (a few days or weeks) and then sit back and go "Oh wait, I'm not getting anywhere. AGAIN," and then drop it. But it could be different for you.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Robin S » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:12 pm UTC

I enjoyed Anarchy Online. It has a very large free-to-play section.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:14 pm UTC

I've edited my original post. Please, don't mention WoW anymore. It doesn't fall into a single criteria I listed.

PotBS seems REALLY interesting, kind of like EvE lite. I'll check it out.

I'm interested in Lineage II or EQ 2. Any experience with these?

I played Ragnarok Online and thought it was heaps of fun, if theres something out there thats geared at, say, not 12 year olds in the same vein, I'd dig it. Hence, perhaps, Lineage 2.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:48 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:So, yeah, you can customise your gear to your heart's content.

At least until around level 45-50 or so. After that, priests all start to look alike, warriors all start to look alike, and so on.
good grouping,
If you know somebody already.

Yeah, you're either an unsociable gamer of you've come across some intense douchebaggery. My real-life friends who play WoW aren't on my server, so I started, like most people, not knowing anybody. So here's where a little word called sociable sets in. You meet people. You help them out, they drop the party because they've "Got to run" as soon as you want to do something, even though you see them online for the next three hours.

Fix'd for my experience with pickup groups.

minimising on farming,
Insofar as you never actually plant crops, yes.

Farming in this context, I mean "killing NPCs to get a certain piece of loot", not literally farming with hoes n' stuff.

......
right. Because farming for Argent Dawn rep to buy some damn recipe never happens. Sure, it's a lot faster than in other games, but there's still tons of farming. It's minimized with respect to other MMOs. It's not minimized.

Of course, I played a priest. My own damned fault there.

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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby thecommabandit » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:43 pm UTC

I've played Everquest II for a good... three to four months. I didn't get very far into the higher level content (partly because I spent two thirds of my time crafting) but I enjoyed it a lot. It's a very solid game that you can play at any kind of level; playing casually works well, there's a large raiding community if you're into that and the community itself is usually fairly polite and not full of dickheads. You can solo to a certain extent, but the dungeons and higher-level quests and encounters tend to include 'epic' enemies (i.e. they'll be a certain level but they'll be quite a bit harder than an equivalent non-epic mob) and large groups. There at least used to be a very in-depth and interesting crafting system, in which you would collect your materials, make them into components and then make the final item, but last July-ish they dumbed it down a lot so it's just collect and make. I haven't played since then so I can't comment on the new system. The character development is something that can be innovative if you put thought into it. Rather than just gaining new skills and spells as you level up, you can buy runes or scrolls to gain new skills or increase your existing skills to a decent level and combined with creative stringing together of attacks to make the most of them create a unique build.

Along with that it's got some spiffy graphics that can be scaled so that even pretty crap computers or OMGawesome super-computers can have settings that utilise its maximum potential, a fairly decent face morpher at character select and a nice selection of classes it's a pretty cool game.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Indon » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:38 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:True Economy - Very much like Eve, less reliance on farming, but it's a true player economy


I dunno if I'd call a fully player-based economy (especially in a PvP environment) a "true economy". Such a dynamic tends to lead to economies dominated by the largest player organizations - essentially, cartels.

Since I hesitate to call the economy of a hypothetical Mafia Online a 'true economy' (and definitely not a good economy), I wonder why people would think the system in EvE and similar games is, well, particularly good.

Edit: As for WoW, I thought it was fun, but eventually it got boring.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Allium Cepa » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:20 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'm interested in Lineage II or EQ 2. Any experience with these?


I've played EQ2 since launch, so I imagine I know fair amount about it. As commabandit said, it's a very diverse game, there is plenty of solo and group content to keep you occupied. The raiding community is also pretty large if your into the more intense dedication of the game. They say they have pretty lax raiding guilds but from my experience they normally don't do very well, which is really frustrating. So I don't raid because I don't have time for a harcore guild, and don't feel like getting my ass kicked I don't raid. Without raiding there is still a ton of higher level content. The core package is pretty cheap too, you only need to spend like 30 bucks on the whole game with expansions plus the monthly fee.

thecommabandit wrote:I There at least used to be a very in-depth and interesting crafting system, in which you would collect your materials, make them into components and then make the final item, but last July-ish they dumbed it down a lot so it's just collect and make. I haven't played since then so I can't comment on the new system.


I used to enjoy the old crafting system more, but that's because I had one of the easier crafting classes, provisioner. The changed it so they don't have subcombines anymore. Subcombines were when you had to make a bunch of smaller items so you could make a larger item. For example as a provisioner if I wanted to make a drink for someone I would have to make the component for the drink then the drink itself. Now, you can just craft the end result first. So, crafting has been very simplified which makes it a lot easier to pick up.

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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby SilentSigil » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:35 pm UTC

I think a little part of me died when Dragon Empires got cancelled as it was coming out of beta testing.

Seriously. Maybe they overstretched themselves... It was going to be a masterpiece.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Jack21222 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:31 am UTC

Indon wrote:
Jack21222 wrote:True Economy - Very much like Eve, less reliance on farming, but it's a true player economy


I dunno if I'd call a fully player-based economy (especially in a PvP environment) a "true economy". Such a dynamic tends to lead to economies dominated by the largest player organizations - essentially, cartels.

Since I hesitate to call the economy of a hypothetical Mafia Online a 'true economy' (and definitely not a good economy), I wonder why people would think the system in EvE and similar games is, well, particularly good.

Edit: As for WoW, I thought it was fun, but eventually it got boring.


Just curious, have you ever played either EVE or PotBS? PotBS is too young to have cartels, and I've not noticed any cartels in EVE since the game is so large, and the basic resources are spread so far apart in the universe. Of course, some corporations will have control over certain regions, but most of what you need to craft pretty much anything in EVE is in high security areas. EVE is old enough now that if there was to be a major disruptive cartel, you'd see it by now.

In PotBS, the PvP is very limited in scope. It takes some PvE and special quests to turn a port into a PvP zone. Even then, multiple ports have certain natural resources, so an enemy nation would need to capture all of those to deny your faction that resource. But as far as competing with your own faction, the barriers to entry into the economy are so amazingly low, that you'll never see a cartel in PotBS. It takes practically nothing to build structures to harvest or create whatever you want.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Jack21222 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:32 am UTC

SilentSigil wrote:I think a little part of me died when Dragon Empires got cancelled as it was coming out of beta testing.

Seriously. Maybe they overstretched themselves... It was going to be a masterpiece.


A little part of me died when Horizons was gutted and rebuilt.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Masuri » Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:04 am UTC

I think EQ2 or Vanguard: Saga of Heroes would do you right, sir.

EQ2 is all that Allium Cepa said but I do want to chime in that the raid content, which I have experienced in a high-end guild, is crap. The raids are uninspired, cookie-cutter encounters that never really challenge your guild's skill level. There's a lot of arbitrariness to the encounters, which drives me bonkers. I believe that any challenge we face in any raid, we should be able to overcome through skill, strategy, and superior tactics. EQ2 has a lot of gotchas that you simply can't avoid via any means. That's just stupid.

That said, the six-man content is fabulous and the rewards are pretty great. You can advance your character, go through epic story arcs, and enjoy challenging content without ever having to raid. That's nice. If the raids were half as well-done as the 6-man stuff, well, then it'd be EQ1 and we wouldn't bother paying for EQ2, I guess.

Vanguard also seems to fit. You can solo but grouping is muy beneficial and the rewards for it dwarf those for soloing. You like EvE so tedium doesn't bother you, and there is a lot of farming/tedium in Vanguard past a certain point. Lots of work for small advances is the name of the game. However, I bypassed that route and simply explored every dungeon with my friends. I have a friend who does nothing but craft - no adventuring at all. So, that's a viable path to advancement.

The raiding in Vanguard is in its infancy. There is one raid zone that I believe fits 18 people (3 groups). My friends from EQ1 who were bigtime raiders love it. They say it's challenging and interesting and they enjoy the experience. That's high praise.

And now, I mention WoW, even though you said not to - because it meets all of your criteria better than the other games I mentioned. Why rule out something that hits every single requirement you have right on the nose?

Multiplayer experience: I have leveled my way up to 68 predominantly by grouping. I am a holy priest, thus soloing is doable but tedious. The level 60+ instances are progressively more challenging as you go and I am enjoying them quite a lot. With a good group of people, the Burning Crusade instances are bliss. (With idiots, the agony burns like a thousand suns.)

Economy: I made a game of buying and selling in WoW, and I have made a great deal of cash simply by watching the market and playing to its demands. I am an alchemist and my potions are not only useful in my every day grouping, but sell for mad cash. If you don't think WoW has a thriving economy, checkout the Auctioneer mod. It's freakin' incredible.

Character Development: I'm a holy priest and have leveled up that way since level 40. This was an unpopular choice among priests. Most are shadow until they hit 60 then they grudgingly turn holy. Taking this less-traveled path meant that I was able to indulge my passion for instances more safely and fully than other priests while I was leveling up. It's not the 'optimal' path, and I got a lot of flack for it. But fuck 'em, it's what I wanted to do.

Support Classes: I'm finally on board with the way WoW does support classes. In EQ, each support class had its own role and very little overlap existed - enchanters for CC, shamans for stat enhancement, etc. In WoW, CC is done by various classes in various ways. There are multiple backup healers. Tanking can be done by druids, for the love of Jim. It's very diverse and the way you play your character determines what you can do with it.

I used to feel the way you do. I spent a lot of time disdaining WoW because it was the Boy Band of MMOs. Contrived, easy, accessible, and impossible to get away from - everyone plays it. But I finally gave it a fair shot and I like it. I don't love it like I did EQ, but WoW really is all things to all players. Anything you wanna do, you can do, pretty much.

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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby levicc00123 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:00 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:I enjoyed Anarchy Online. It has a very large free-to-play section.


I second the vote for Anarchy Online, but I would highly recommend you read Prophet Without Honor before you start play though. It tells the whole story behind the game.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Indon » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:07 pm UTC

Jack21222 wrote:Just curious, have you ever played either EVE or PotBS? PotBS is too young to have cartels, and I've not noticed any cartels in EVE since the game is so large, and the basic resources are spread so far apart in the universe. Of course, some corporations will have control over certain regions, but most of what you need to craft pretty much anything in EVE is in high security areas. EVE is old enough now that if there was to be a major disruptive cartel, you'd see it by now.


I haven't played EvE - I just have friends that do. As such, I know enough to know that high security space can't save you - it just makes podding you inconvenient, meaning that if someone kills you it'll be for a reason, instead of for fun. Cartels definitely exist, and they take hostile action against individuals who undercut them consistently, because they can and it's profitable to do so.

EvE's saving grace is likely, as you say, that the game is so large that resource density outstrips player density. EvE is simply not crowded enough for its' economy to degrade as I describe _everywhere_... just in some places. Which, I might add, makes it a non-scarcity economy.

Jack21222 wrote:In PotBS, the PvP is very limited in scope. It takes some PvE and special quests to turn a port into a PvP zone. Even then, multiple ports have certain natural resources, so an enemy nation would need to capture all of those to deny your faction that resource. But as far as competing with your own faction, the barriers to entry into the economy are so amazingly low, that you'll never see a cartel in PotBS. It takes practically nothing to build structures to harvest or create whatever you want.


You can't build things if a port is involved in combat, from what I've heard (from players who were obviously discontent with the economic system), even if you aren't involved in the faction PvP. As far as competing in-faction, a quick contact outside of your faction can solve that. But more importantly, as you said earlier, it's too young, as of now, to see for certain how the economy will stabilize - you posit that the game is also generating a non-scarcity economy, and if it is, I'll likely never hear about it in the form of complaints again.

Which brings up a different reason to call them not 'true economies' - resources aren't actually competed for in any meaningful sense in a non-scarcity economy.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Vaniver » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:00 pm UTC

Well, time is a scarce commodity. But MMO economies that run on time (that is to say, all of them) tend to be deeply inequal / flawed.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Yuri2356 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:40 am UTC

Well, if time is scrace for you then you may want to considder Browser/AP-based MMO like Pardus. You can dart in for about 15 minutes each day without any sense of falling behind. The Economy is highly player-driven too.

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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Jack21222 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:45 am UTC

Yuri2356 wrote:Well, if time is scrace for you then you may want to considder Browser/AP-based MMO like Pardus. You can dart in for about 15 minutes each day without any sense of falling behind. The Economy is highly player-driven too.


There's also the opportunity cost of building structures. Each account can only have 10 structures built. Not each character, but each account. So, you can't build everything with your time, which leads to trade. Some players specialize in raw resources, some specialize in refined resources, and others specialize in finished products.

This isn't an economics sim, but it is closer to a player-based economy than a vast majority of MMORPGs are.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Military » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:50 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:What I'm looking for:
-true reliance on multiplayer, I don't want a solo gig.
-a true economy, I enjoy crafting classes and non-combatant classes as well
-character development that doesn't necessarily require 'optimal' paths.
-good availability of support classes, and enough flexibility or game design to allow for innovative character use (i.e., Knights should not ONLY be tanks, mages should not ONLY be glass-cannon DPSs)...

Any suggestions?




I would suggest Wurmonline, Everything is player made, so there is a true economy, there are no classes only what you want to specialize in, Fighter, Priest, Mage, Farmer, Smith, You all start out the same and can do anything you want. The developers wanted a game that would foster community if you want to succeed you join a player created town and find you niche.

On the other hand its on the smaller side, and may require more time then you can give it, I don't have the time, though I wish I did It is an awesome game.

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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Nyarlathotep » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:58 am UTC

Odd suggestion: but get the 99 cent one-month subscription to Myst Online: Uru Live, 'cuase the game's going to die in two months anyway XD no obligation, have a nice time?
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Felstaff » Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:45 am UTC

Here is an interesting linkto all the Free MMO role-playing games out there: everything from RuneScape to Guild Wars to ...A Tractor? (I don't think that game exists anymore, although it was fun.) The site's homepage has a link to all free online games, also.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:57 pm UTC

I played Ultima, MUD's, WoW, City of X, EQ1, and now EQ2.

I am enjoying EQ2 the most. (except for MUD's back in the day)

I like that I have a lot of options.
One thing I am enjoying is the Alternative Advancment system that EQ2 offers.
You can turn off your exp, and accumulate AA points, which are spent on new and better skills. You still get EXP by completeing quests but if you lock your exp you become a lot more powerful at your level.

I also enjoy the fact that I can create better items than I can find. If you get in a guild or have a group of friends, you can have people specialize in different areas, and create some deadly Equipment.

I think you can do this in WoW, but not sure...

But basically you could create an EQ2 character, and do nothing buy craft, never do any EXP at all, and become very rich.

In addition EQ2 has exchange servers where you can legally buy and sell eq, plat, and characters.

My ultimate EQ2 challenge would be:

Create a level 1 character, and do nothing but craft with some harvesting.
As you begin selling your wares, you buy more componants, craft bigger and better items, and self level your way up to the max which is a level 80 in chosen crafting profession.

Then I would accumulate large quantites of plat. Currently 50 plat is selling for $60.
Sell about 5 of these bundels, and then delete my character.

Buy a level 80 character and rename him my original.

So in essence you would work like crazy to get level 80 without ever killing a single monster or completing a single quest. Maybe not glorious, but still challenging and different.

So in essence there are lots of ways to enjoy your character. I am currently the highest level character in my new founded guild, and I am also the weakest. The rest of my crew locked their exp and have sick skills and abilities, but are 20 levels behind me.

I don't think that can happen in WoW or any other game, where a lower level character can beat your a$$ in PvP. with Equipment being equal.

I got my a$$ handed to me by a cleric 8 levels lower than my fighter, that was embarassing. But I also beat the hell out of 2 characters 2 levels higher than me at the same time. I don't see that happening in WoW.

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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby 22/7 » Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:28 pm UTC

Nexus War anyone? Semi-text based, but a lot of fun. The community is great, too.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Allium Cepa » Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:42 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote: So in essence you would work like crazy to get level 80 without ever killing a single monster or completing a single quest. Maybe not glorious, but still challenging and different.


Please don't do that. Ever. You wind up a level 80 character and you don't know how to play your class. The game is all about the content and if you skip to level 80, what the hell is the point? You have missed all of the content, don't know anything about the game, and your in the top teir bringing down your group. It would just be no fun at all for you or the people around you. Plus, most crafters barely make enough money from selling their own goods to support making more. All the money is in selling higher level masters.

The only thing I agree with you is about the AA's. They're fun and diverse.

Oh, and if you really consider EQ2 I would suggest heading over to their message boards, they're extremely helpful with class builds and the such.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:47 pm UTC

Allium Cepa wrote:
Ixtellor wrote: So in essence you would work like crazy to get level 80 without ever killing a single monster or completing a single quest. Maybe not glorious, but still challenging and different.


Please don't do that. Ever. You wind up a level 80 character and you don't know how to play your class. The game is all about the content and if you skip to level 80, what the hell is the point? You have missed all of the content, don't know anything about the game, and your in the top teir bringing down your group. It would just be no fun at all for you or the people around you. Plus, most crafters barely make enough money from selling their own goods to support making more. All the money is in selling higher level masters.

The only thing I agree with you is about the AA's. They're fun and diverse.

Oh, and if you really consider EQ2 I would suggest heading over to their message boards, they're extremely helpful with class builds and the such.


1) I agree about starting off at level 80. It is why I am leveling up my current character. I don't want to be the guy who has no clue whats going on when someone says
"5 lv 80 Q in CL near WC"
I still have no clue how to get to butcherblock mountains. So no worries there.

2) As far as crafting goes, I am making a fortune. It only takes a little research. I basicaly find what "rares" are selling cheaply and compare it to what the end products it is producing are selling for.
For example I am currently buying "Oak Roots" a rare item for 10 gold a pop and the other componants which equal about 1 more G, then crafting mastercrafted mage gear from it that sells for 40 gold a pop. I have another character who is an alchemist who was doing the same thing and he was making decent cash. I don't have a weaponsmith, but it appears that a lot of cash can be made there as well, as decent adorned weapons are expensive as heck.
I think I have about 25 plat in the bank, and all my gear and skills are top notch.

I love the economy on EQ2.


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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:17 pm UTC

Hehe, on the topic of buying characters, theres a great page somewhere of horribly fit capital ships in EvE that were taken down because a newbie pilot had no idea what they were doing.

Things like fitting a dreadnaught with a mining laser and battleship sized armor repper.

Considering a capital pilot and capital ship will set you back about 3-600 USD, i applaud people for making a weeks income explosion.

I hate gold selling. Character selling I'm less bugged by, but the unfortunant truth is newbies will buy those chars and have no idea what to do with it.

MMO players: How bad is your game's bot problem? Eve's economy is thrashed because of macrominers.
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Re: MMO Recommendations?

Postby Allium Cepa » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:39 pm UTC

To get to Butcherblock you take a ship from either Nek or the Steppes. If your good aligned you can also take the carpet from SS to Butcherblock. Out of curiosity what level and class are you? Anyways, I never had much success with crafting, but you and apparantley others can do quite well from it, so power to you.

And as for the bots, EQ2 takes care of them very well. I don't see bots that often, but when I do they're wither harvesting nodes or in groups running instances. When they're in groups for some reason they tend to be in groups of threes and it's pretty easy to tell they're bots by the names. You never get spam because they have a filtering system. If a bot trys to send you spam either through the in-game mail or through a tell (tell is like the whispering system) it gets blocked and you don't have to view it. One of the best updates they made to the game.

Oh, and they don't effect the economy very much, everything is a reasonable price for the tier that it is in. Crafting is especially easy in the lower levels because the rares are normally dirt cheap.
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