xkcd

by **ZLVT** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:54 pm UTC

Edit: I've decided to make this an Esperanto practice thread because it seems to have exhausted its other uses and it would seem a bit frivolous to make a new thread for it. Also it would appear not many people speak Lojban here. General questions are still welcome though.

I noticed a distinct lack of Esperanto topics. I thought I'd make one.

I've studied a bit of Esperanto, not enough to be fluent, but enough to get by with a dictionary. I must say I am an advocate although I hope to create my own language one day as I dislike many things about Esperanto. Not least among my dislikes, the lack of distinct singular and plural 2nd person pronouns. Also, the sparse verb inflection really gets to me. Comming from a langauge where verbs are inflected not only with reagrds to their subjects but also their objects, and where we do have 1st and 3rd person imperatives which are also the dependant upon their objects, the requirement of Esperanto that I use up to 2 pronouns in a sentence shocks me. It makes it seem very ... English, and while English has many charms to it, and certain liberties not found elsewhere, I don't like it.

GB: I love you (w:3 s:3 ch:10)
Eo: mi volas vin (w:3 s:4 ch:12)
Hu: szeretlek (w:1 s:3 ch:9)

w=words
s=syllables
ch=characters (spaces are included as they do take time when typing so there)

Furthermore, I think Lojban deserves to be discussed, especially as Randal seems to be an advocate and I do like the idea but I have never learnt any, even though I someday will.

Anyone interested in Esperanto should go to http://www.lernu.net

by **4=5** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:21 pm UTC

advocate?
Did you see how badly he dissed people who learn it?

by **ZLVT** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:53 pm UTC

4=5 wrote:advocate?
Did you see how badly he dissed people who learn it?

Indeed I did, he did however translate the text into lojban and I feel that the point of the peice was to raise awareness, as it were, about lojban. I mean he has a point, ppl who speak lojban can only speak to other people who speak lojban. Also, the comic was hardly a deep blow to the lojban community if a blow at all.

by **Cosmologicon** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:23 pm UTC

ZLVT wrote:Also, the sparse verb inflection really gets to me. Comming from a langauge where verbs are inflected not only with reagrds to their subjects but also their objects, and where we do have 1st and 3rd person imperatives which are also the dependant upon their objects, the requirement of Esperanto that I use up to 2 pronouns in a sentence shocks me. It makes it seem very ... English, and while English has many charms to it, and certain liberties not found elsewhere, I don't like it.

GB: I love you (w:3 s:3 ch:10)
Eo: mi volas vin (w:3 s:4 ch:12)
Hu: szeretlek (w:1 s:3 ch:9)

I gotta disagree. For me the difference between "I love" and "you love" belongs with the pronoun, not the verb. Of course it seems like this when I say it in English, but still. Esperanto's verb conjugation is one of my favorite things! Also, I don't think counting syllables is fair, because Esperanto is very euphonic compared to English (except for words that start with sc!).

There are a couple things I don't like though, chief of which is the lack of a gender-neutral third-person singular. If I were making the language, there'd be more general pronouns, one for first person, one for second, and one for third. Then you could tack on a modifier for gender or number only if you needed to resolve ambiguity. I'd also give the numbers regular endings, maybe "o" or "a" depending on if they're nouns or adjectives.

by **Supergrunch** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:53 pm UTC

I've always felt that artificial languages, while an interesting academic diversions, will never achieve the same status as natural langauges because they're created rather than spontaneously coming into existence. This means that you have no people who speak it as their first language, and no attached history.

by **ZLVT** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:39 am UTC

Cosmologicon wrote:
ZLVT wrote:Also, the sparse verb inflection really gets to me. Comming from a langauge where verbs are inflected not only with reagrds to their subjects but also their objects, and where we do have 1st and 3rd person imperatives which are also the dependant upon their objects, the requirement of Esperanto that I use up to 2 pronouns in a sentence shocks me. It makes it seem very ... English, and while English has many charms to it, and certain liberties not found elsewhere, I don't like it.

GB: I love you (w:3 s:3 ch:10)
Eo: mi volas vin (w:3 s:4 ch:12)
Hu: szeretlek (w:1 s:3 ch:9)

I gotta disagree. For me the difference between "I love" and "you love" belongs with the pronoun, not the verb. Of course it seems like this when I say it in English, but still. Esperanto's verb conjugation is one of my favorite things! Also, I don't think counting syllables is fair, because Esperanto is very euphonic compared to English (except for words that start with sc!).

I think that all of the above sound rather nice, I prefer my own tongue of course but that is up to the speaker in question. Also the pronounin English doesn't completely cover the inflection "I go" "he goes"; "I am" "you are" "he is" etc. I prefer it when the minimum number of words are used.

Cosmologicon wrote:There are a couple things I don't like though, chief of which is the lack of a gender-neutral third-person singular. If I were making the language, there'd be more general pronouns, one for first person, one for second, and one for third. Then you could tack on a modifier for gender or number only if you needed to resolve ambiguity. I'd also give the numbers regular endings, maybe "o" or "a" depending on if they're nouns or adjectives.

my idea is to tack togther pronouns. Genders would be as follows: Masculine, feminine, neuter, unspecified (generic), mixed (for plurals only). (feel free to cut that down to the basic 3), there would be a stem for 1st person telling us that you are invilved m(i)- maybe, a stem for 2nd person -vi perhaps where the vowel marks singular/plurality and in between these two stems could be placed the 3rd person pronoun stem, marking off the gener(s) and number of the 3rd party(ies). In this way "we" would no longer mean:
"he and I"
"she and I"
"my friends and I"
"he and you and I"
"she and you and I"
"my friends and you and I"
"you and I"

But rather for each incidence (bear in mind that 'you' can be both sigular and plural in english amounting to 10 permutations, more if we count 'it') there would be a specifically constructed pronoun to cover that particular assortment of people.

Of course you may prefer magyar where the ONLY 3rd person singular pronoun is 'ő' denoting both masculine and feminine, however, like in Dutch when we wish to refer to the table, we might use 'az' meaning either 'that' or 'the', similar to the Dutch 'het' and 'dit' when the article 'het' is used as a contracted form of 'de tafel' ('het', is the article form neuter singular nouns, all others are 'de', alas tafel is masculine so the congruence is a bit difficulat to point out)

Supergrunch wrote:I've always felt that artificial languages, while an interesting academic diversions, will never achieve the same status as natural langauges because they're created rather than spontaneously coming into existence. This means that you have no people who speak it as their first language, and no attached history.

Well, this is true but in China, they made it compulsory at universities (I dont know the official line here) and many European nations are pushing it, Hungary I think is one of the biggest pushers of all, and we offer it at univiersities (And when I'm Prime Minister, and we all know that is the only option, I will make it a compulsory language from year 4 up)
In fact many people have learnt Esperanto from Esperantist parents from birth, there are native speakers. Furthermore, Esperanto, since it is neutral, does not threaten other nations' language integrity. Note how, while in Wales many speak Welsh and in Irelrand and Scotland they speak Gaelic and Scots respectively (rather close I hear) They all speak English, because English is the official language of the sovereign nation, this means that the prexisting languages have become mere secondary, local dialects and soon may not even exist. Esperanto, belongs to no one and is purely for auxiliary communication so no nation's language would be under threat.
I was in Wien for a few days and I was personally affronted at the high level of English among locals. It made getting lost and generating amusing anecdotes rather difficult (and I so found that pub before midnight too) I enjoy the challenge of cross language communication and think it has rather taken the fun out of travelling to be able to speak English. Koudos to the French for supressing English.
Also, because Esperanto is new to all ethnicities and nations, it means hat communication in Esperanto is far more even handed. While cnferences held in English usually mean that the English speakers get the floor while less comfortable speakers don't voice their veiws as much, at least so says Claude Piron.
Here's a youtube vid about his experiences with Esperanto, I happen to like it very much, it is 8:26 and here's the comment:

"A former UN and WHO translator, who is also a psychologist -- Claude Piron taught for 20 years at the Psychology Department of the University of Geneva - shares his experience of international communication and discusses the international language Esperanto.
Subtitled in others languages:
http://dotsub.com/films/thelanguage/ "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YHALnLV9XU

by **Number3Pencils** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:27 am UTC

Regarding a third-person singular pronoun: I've seen "sxli" proposed, but I don't practice my Esperanto nearly enough to know whether anyone actually uses it. I think the language is in a pretty good state of amendability, though. But not too changeable, because that would compromise its integrity. I guess this makes only fractional sense.

Ho... mi ne praktikis Esperanton dum longa tempo. Mi uzas gxin sole temptempe. Eble mi rekomencos skribi en gxi en la interreto.

by **ZLVT** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:00 am UTC

I was under the impression that 'gxi' was used for all genders but the Anglophones don't because refering to him or her as 'it' seems a bit ... odd

by **ZLVT** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:09 am UTC

Number3Pencils wrote:Ho... mi ne praktikis Esperanton dum longa tempo. Mi uzas gxin sole temptempe. Eble mi rekomencos skribi en gxi en la interreto.

volas vi Esperanton forumon krei?

by **ZLVT** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:57 pm UTC

Ok, I know I'm making a lot of threads, but I rarely find a group of people with siuch similar interests piled into one place. I always hoped to meet ppl who appreciated (not just enjoyed) XKCD and to have them distilled here and broken down into my favourite subjects is just blissful. So, we have soooo much to discuss.

Anyway, here's a place to post about any exciting artificial langauges* or ones that you have/are/will learnt/learning/learn and everyone's opinions about them. If we get enough supporters for any given language we may start a thread in that langaguge but I doubt that that will happen. I for one am enthused about Esperanto, Lojban and Interlingua. I support Esperanto (not Ido I'm afraid, but if you speak it I won't brand for the reformist heretics you are) because it really is easy, I think that EVERY country should teach it from year 4 (4th grade / 4th form) onwards, in a few years, people will achieve a Lv5 fluency. I support Lojban because I belive in the Sapir Whorf hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir%E2%8 ... hypothesis (If someone could tell me how to make the words link to the site I would be grateful) and I think that it would be interesting to see people grow up thinking perfectly clearly. I support Interlingua because it claims to be able to bridge the gap between romance languages.

I studied a bit of Esperanto, but I'm out of practice. Lojban spelling scares me.

*Not your own please, I'd like to make another thread to deal with that, I have had a few "false starts" in that area, so ideas would be helpful.

by **Actaeus** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:27 pm UTC

ZLVT wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir%E2%80%93Whorf_hypothesis (If someone could tell me how to make the words link to the site I would be grateful)

Code: Select all: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir%E2%80%93Whorf_hypothesis]Sapir-Whorf hypothesis[/url]

becomes Sapir-Whorf hypothesis
On topic: I don't think any artificial languages could really succeed, considering that a majority of people would have to learn them for them to have any real effect. It would be great if one worked well and did become universal, but I don't think that's going to happen. Furthermore, any language will change and become less "logical" over time, as new words are created and meanings change.

by **ZLVT** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:35 pm UTC

Actaeus wrote:On topic: I don't think any artificial languages could really succeed, considering that a majority of people would have to learn them for them to have any real effect. It would be great if one worked well and did become universal, but I don't think that's going to happen. Furthermore, any language will change and become less "logical" over time, as new words are created and meanings change.

Bedankt meneer

Well here's the thing, If you look at the youtube vid I posted on the esperanto/lojban topic, it was calculated that the EU alone owuld save ~25x10^9 euro p.a. if they invested in teaching esperanto in schools and not english. Esperanto can be picked up in a matter of weeks (you wont be fluent but you can get by) It is sooo easy to learn it's not funny. Anglo's often have a problem with learning other langauges yes, but Euros (continental) nearly all speak a second language if not more. If we all made that secondary language Esperanto, then the millions (millia, I think) of people In Europe could all communicate with each other from coast to .... um .... Russia. Which would be a great improvement and it would make learning further languages easier.

by **Number3Pencils** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:53 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:volas vi Esperantan forumon krei?

(riparetita)

Se estas intereso. Kiom da geviroj parolas Eperanton cxi tie? Tre iomete, mi pensus.

Spoiler:

by **ZLVT** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:30 am UTC

Number3Pencils wrote:
ZLVT wrote:volas vi Esperantan forumon krei?

Se estas intereso. Kiom da geviroj parolas Eperanton cxi tie? Tre iomete, mi pensus.

Kiel povas ni scii ke kiu parolas esperanton?

Spoiler:

by **Eschatokyrios** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:17 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:IComming from a langauge where verbs are inflected not only with reagrds to their subjects but also their objects, and where we do have 1st and 3rd person imperatives which are also the dependant upon their objects, the requirement of Esperanto that I use up to 2 pronouns in a sentence shocks me. It makes it seem very ... English, and while English has many charms to it, and certain liberties not found elsewhere, I don't like it.

What language do you speak natively?

by **ZLVT** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:24 am UTC

magyar (Hungarian). I take it you speak Georgian?

by **Number3Pencils** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:30 am UTC

Mi pensas, ke ili venus cxi tien (vidantaj "Esperanto/Lojban") kaj skribus Esperante. Se estas Esperantistoj. Sxajnas, kiel ne estas.

Spoiler:

by **steewi** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:58 am UTC

I'm not a fan of IALs (international auxiliary language), mostly because they all have high ideals of easy learning and simplicity and they generally fail dismally or at least end up Eurocentric. On the other hand, I like conlangs in general, because playing around with the ideas of languages is just a lot of fun. I used to know a bit of Esperanto. I can read what you're all writing, but I can't construct anything grammatical. I'm a fan of Tolkien languages, although Tengwar are a dyslexic's nightmare, and have a hope to come up with something truly original in a conscript. I've had no success yet. Natural languages seem to already do most things my brain can handle.

by **ZLVT** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:41 am UTC

Number3Pencils wrote:Mi pensas, ke ili venus cxi tien (vidantaj "Esperanto/Lojban") kaj skribus Esperante. Se estas Esperantistoj. Sxajnas, kiel ne estas.

estu pacientia, ili venos.

Spoiler:

by **Hurduser** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:59 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:Kiel povas ni scii ke kiu parolas esperanton?

Mi lernas esperanto.

by **ave_matthew** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:05 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:Kiel povas ni scii ke kiu parolas esperanton?

Mi eklernas parli esperante, se mi ne povas parli gxin, gxi estus malutila.
Mia una lingvo estas anlgo, mia dua estas lingvo franca,miaj triaj estas lingvo hispana.
Mi havas mia lingvo kaj mi eklernas parli kimre.
Mi sxatas esperanton.

se faras erarojn diru al min.

Mi lernas esperanto.[/quote]

by **Zarkonnen** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:53 am UTC

Well, there's always Solresol and Ithkuil. Which are majorly cool if completely dotty. The former is based on musical notes (do re mi fa sol la ti) and the latter on excessively modifying a small set of base words to get a "hyper-compressed" language.

by **ChrisMP1** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:53 pm UTC

I've noticed that many beginners' Esperanto lessons teach you to say "Mi parolas Esperanton." (Or worse, 'esperanton', no capital.) Esperanto is not English. It has different rules. You don't speak a language; you speak in a language. "Mi parolas Esperante." To speak a language is to utter the entire lexicon. (And "Mi parolas esperanton" without a capital is even worse; it means "I speak a hoping person.")
P.S. To the person who said something about 'ghi' (or 'gxi', depending on your chosen representation -- it's really a 'g' with a circumflex ^ over it), yes, it is technically a neuter second person pronoun, but English speakers tend not to use it because it also means 'it'. I used to, but I was sick of being yelled at.

Mi perceptis, ke multe da novicaj Esperantaj lecionaroj instruas al oni diri, "Mi parolas Esperanton." (Au pli malbona, 'esperanton', sen majusklo.) Esperanto ne estas la Angla. Ghi havas malsamajn regulojn. Oni ne parolas lingvon, oni parolas per lingvo. "Mi parolas Esperante." Paroli lingvo estas diri la tutan vortaron. (Kaj "Mi parolas esperanton" sen majusklo estas pli malbonega; ghi signifas "Mi parolas homon, kiu esperas.")

by **ave_matthew** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:04 am UTC

Zarkonnen wrote:Well, there's always Solresol and Ithkuil. Which are majorly cool if completely dotty. The former is based on musical notes (do re mi fa sol la ti) and the latter on excessively modifying a small set of base words to get a "hyper-compressed" language.

I think that Ithkuil is cool, but some of the consonant shifts seem kind of arbitrary to me, but I only looked over the language.
Mi kredas ke Ithkuil estas bona lingvo, sed iom consonantosxangoj sxajnas arbitraj al min. Sed mi nur ekrigardetis gxin.
Je crois que l'Ithkuil est chique, cependant, quelques'uns des varition de consonants me semble un peu arbitaire.

by **ZLVT** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:33 am UTC

ChrisMP1 wrote:I've noticed that many beginners' Esperanto lessons teach you to say "Mi parolas Esperanton." (Or worse, 'esperanton', no capital.) Esperanto is not English. It has different rules. You don't speak a language; you speak in a language. "Mi parolas Esperante." To speak a language is to utter the entire lexicon. (And "Mi parolas esperanton" without a capital is even worse; it means "I speak a hoping person.")
P.S. To the person who said something about 'ghi' (or 'gxi', depending on your chosen representation -- it's really a 'g' with a circumflex ^ over it), yes, it is technically a neuter second person pronoun, but English speakers tend not to use it because it also means 'it'. I used to, but I was sick of being yelled at.

Mi perceptis, ke multe da novicaj Esperantaj lecionaroj instruas al oni diri, "Mi parolas Esperanton." (Au pli malbona, 'esperanton', sen majusklo.) Esperanto ne estas la Angla. Ghi havas malsamajn regulojn. Oni ne parolas lingvon, oni parolas per lingvo. "Mi parolas Esperante." Paroli lingvo estas diri la tutan vortaron. (Kaj "Mi parolas esperanton" sen majusklo estas pli malbonega; ghi signifas "Mi parolas homon, kiu esperas.")

I brought up 'gxi' but I don't see why people use ch sh gh hh jh uh, yes they are understandable, but h occurs in Esperanto anyway, adds to the confusion.
Also re: "Mi parolas Esperante" how is this a rendering of 'I speak in Esperanto'? Surely it means 'I speak Esperantoly' (common in many Euro languages).

by **steewi** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:44 am UTC

Zarkonnen wrote:Well, there's always Solresol and Ithkuil. Which are majorly cool if completely dotty. The former is based on musical notes (do re mi fa sol la ti) and the latter on excessively modifying a small set of base words to get a "hyper-compressed" language.

Or Toki Pona. Not an endorsement, however. Toki Pona works ok as a pidgin, but not so well for larger things.

by **ChrisMP1** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:25 pm UTC

Also re: "Mi parolas Esperante" how is this a rendering of 'I speak in Esperanto'? Surely it means 'I speak Esperantoly' (common in many Euro languages).

This does mean 'I speak Esperantoly' word-for-word. It is a rendering of 'I speak in Esperanto' because it is the Esperanto phrase with the same understood meaning as the English phrase 'I speak (in) Esperanto.' The adverb form can be very useful, especially in a language where it is decidedly in-awkward to make an adverb out of a language.

by **Number3Pencils** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:19 am UTC

Do, cxu cxi tio nun estas Esperanta forumo?

Spoiler:

by **ave_matthew** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:36 am UTC

mi pensas ke ĝi ŝuldas esti unu.
se vi volas scii kiel mi povas scribi kaj la lettroj Esperantaj,
iru al http://www.esperanto.mv.ru/Ek/

by **Number3Pencils** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:58 am UTC

Mi uzis Ek! antaue, sed mi ne havas gxin cxe cxi tio komputilo.
Ni devas krei diferencan forumon pro Esperanto, au uzi cxi tiun?

by **ave_matthew** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:39 pm UTC

Ni devas krei unu novan forumon, ĉar tio ne estas la celo de ĉi tio forumo.

by **ZLVT** » Sun May 04, 2008 11:16 am UTC

Okej, esperu ke ĝi funkcios, ĉi tio estas nun oficialula esperanta foron.

by **ave_matthew** » Tue May 06, 2008 6:59 pm UTC

woowoo, kion devas ni fari? alie ke parli esperante.

by **ZLVT** » Wed May 07, 2008 2:36 pm UTC

what should we do? differently that speak Esperanto?

by **ave_matthew** » Wed May 07, 2008 3:38 pm UTC

ave_matthew wrote:woowoo, kion devas ni fari? alie ke parli esperante.

alio ol parli esperante?? ->?autre que parle en esperante
other than speak esperanto.

by **ZLVT** » Thu May 08, 2008 7:09 am UTC

ave_matthew wrote:
ave_matthew wrote:woowoo, kion devas ni fari? alie ke parli esperante.

alio ol parli esperante?? ->?autre que parle en esperante
other than speak esperanto.

Ah, I think the adverbial form put me off. Dunno. Seen any good movies? We coudl twiddle our thumbs till more people come along

by **ave_matthew** » Thu May 08, 2008 1:12 pm UTC

Ne. Ĉu tioj estas(are there?) esperantaj kluboj en via provinco aŭ teritorio?
Mi vivas en Kanado(manitoba) kaj ne estas esperanta klubo ĉi tie, ke mi konas.
Mi pensas ke Kanado devas esti vilaĝlando (canada = vilaĝo en sia lingvo), kio vi pensas?

by **ave_matthew** » Thu May 08, 2008 4:56 pm UTC

Kaj, esperantlingvo jam havas duen personan unuan pronomon. ĝi esperante estas "ci". angllingve ĝi estas "thou". sed la uzado de ĉi tia pronomo grande varias.
kio estas vi unua lingvo?

by **ave_matthew** » Sun May 25, 2008 11:32 am UTC

multi language post time!
Where could one find good book in esperanto?
Où pourra-t-on trouver des bons livres en esperanto?
Kie oni povus trouvi esperantaj libroj?

by **ZLVT** » Sun May 25, 2008 1:24 pm UTC

Por ke postis du au francais? (4 in one sentence damn I'm good)

Anyway, um, I'd check lernu.net also try http://www.liberafolio.org/ the online Esperanto newspaper.

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