## How many users of this forum use subsilver?

For the discussion of math. Duh.

Moderators: gmalivuk, Moderators General, Prelates

## What skin do you use?

Subsilver (no TeX support)
27
36%
Prosilver (TeX support)
30
39%
This board has different skins?
19
25%

skeptical scientist
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### How many users of this forum use subsilver?

There are two skins of this board, prosilver and subsilver. Prosilver, fortunately, provides support for embedding LaTeX math in a forum post, which is great. Subsilver, unfortunately does not. A lot of people are great fans of subsilver and dislike prosilver for nostalgic/aesthetic/whatever reasons, despite the lack of TeX support. I'm wondering to what extent people in the math forum here don't use prosilver, and therefore to what extent I should try to format my mathematics using the board tools without LaTeX (e.g. something like this)
∫x2dx = ∫0x t2dt + C
= C + limn->∞ Σi=1n (ix/n)2(x/n)

as opposed to using TeX math (e.g. this)
$\int x^2 \, dx = \int_0^x t^2 \, dt + C = C + \lim_{n \to \infty} \sum_{i=1}^n \left ( \frac{ix}{n} \right )^2\frac{x}{n}$

The first is a lot more work to put together and doesn't look as nice, but displays correctly for all users. The second is a lot easier, for me at least, and looks much nicer, but won't show up properly if you're using subsilver.

P.S. to mods: there's a reason I put the poll in the math forum as opposed to in general or somewhere else, which is that I'm specifically wondering about users of the math forum for TeX-math reasons.

P.P.S. to users: This is a fine forum to put the poll in, because math markup is going to be way more common in here than anywhere else. For the record, users should feel free to use the math and imath tags whenever they want to show something that doesn't show up easily in regular characters. Anyone unwilling to change skins will thus have to deal with reading TeX code raw. At some point I'll make a sticky about this, to replace the old sup/sub announcement. - gmalivuk
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"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

Mathmagic
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I used to be a hard-nosed subsilver user, until everyone started writing in TeX code that I couldn't read for the life of me. prosilver_left is a really good alternative, since I found the right-aligned avatars very aesthetically unpleasant.

In other words, I have no preference for either style, but I'm just here to point out the prosilver_left skin. Not to mention the colours of prosilver have grown on me.
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Qoppa
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I use prosilver_left. It took a bit of getting used to, and I still prefer the look of subsilver, but prosilver is worth it for TeX support.

Code: Select all

_=0,w=-1,(*t)(int,int);a()??<char*p="[gd\~/d~/\\b\x7F\177l*~/~djal{x}h!\005h";(++w<033)?(putchar((*t)(w??(p:>,w?_:0XD)),a()):0;%>O(x,l)??<_='['/7;{return!(x%(_-11))?x??'l:x^(1+ ++l);}??>main(){t=&O;w=a();}

NathanielJ
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I switched over to ProSilver from SubSilver about 2 days ago. I absolutely hate ProSilver (it's ugly and hard to navigate, IMO), but I like the TeX support. I may switch back soon though if I don't get more used to the different layout any time soon.
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I, too, dislike prosilver. I think everyone who switched did so for the TeX support, since we all liked the old look, but we like being able to write mathematics more.
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

Bassoon
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I voted before I got a chance to switch. Prosilver is win. I like the shakeup. It's a nice change from the typical xkcd fora.

Yesila
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

Who needs TeX support... just read the code, no reason to actually convert it into prettyness.

jestingrabbit
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

Yesila wrote:Who needs TeX support... just read the code, no reason to actually convert it into prettyness.

You're one of these people who will read something upside down if that's how they open it, right?

pro looks fine now. Its been... a week maybe? Looks fine now. Note to jsMath users - there's a little dohickey in the bottom right of the screen, you can muck around with things like options etc in there. Warning about trying to block the jsMath stuff, a product of using opera and hangtimes and stuff. I set mine to display the math at 150% for a duration of 5 years for instance.
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Nimz
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

jestingrabbit wrote:
Yesila wrote:Who needs TeX support... just read the code, no reason to actually convert it into prettyness.

You're one of these people who will read something upside down if that's how they open it, right?

I second that notion of just reading the LaTeX code. I also write upside-down and/or backwards as a hobby, though, to say nothing of reading upside-down. If I'm desperate to see the pictures, I can just log out. I cannot stand either prosilver while I'm logged in (unread threads ftl), but logged out is... okay. The only annoying thing would be typing LaTeX while in subsilver. I've had to log out to make sure stuff I wrote is formatted correctly.
LOWA

jestingrabbit
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

Nimz wrote:
jestingrabbit wrote:
Yesila wrote:Who needs TeX support... just read the code, no reason to actually convert it into prettyness.

You're one of these people who will read something upside down if that's how they open it, right?

I second that notion of just reading the LaTeX code. I also write upside-down and/or backwards as a hobby, though, to say nothing of reading upside-down. If I'm desperate to see the pictures, I can just log out. I cannot stand either prosilver while I'm logged in (unread threads ftl), but logged out is... okay. The only annoying thing would be typing LaTeX while in subsilver. I've had to log out to make sure stuff I wrote is formatted correctly.

Fair enough. But be warned,
davean wrote:
Torn Apart By Dingos wrote:What's the reason for subsilver not being supported?

Because it has been deprecated for months? Subsilver lost support for upgrades back in ether late October or November of 2007.

so in the long run, you might want to go looking for a skin that the forums can use that isn't deprecated, because deprecated means "on the way to being unsupported" and you *will* have to change at some time in the future when the regular updates that davean does clash with subsilver.

This isn't some airy prophecy, this is an accurate description of the planet that we are living on.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

Zohar
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I use prosilver_left. I think it's ugly compared to the simple and sleek subsilver, but it has more features...
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I am now on a haxxed Prosilver, but I switched over for the sole purpose of prettifying Tex.

Edit: Oh man I didn't even notice the JsMath thing. Pumping the math up to 150% makes it infinitely more readable.
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

prosilver_left now, entirely for the TeX. I had an initial few days of Oh me yarm I DO NOT WANT IT but I got used to it fairly fast. Also, yes, the default jsMath size should be at least 150% (I have it at 200% because I get weird compression artifacts at lower sizes. Also, I like big maths symbols )
Generally I try to make myself do things I instinctively avoid, in case they are awesome.
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Yakk
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

jestingrabbit wrote:You're one of these people who will read something upside down if that's how they open it, right?

I wasn't the person asked, but sure. I've read newspapers upside down on average.

A youth of buying D&D books and splitting the reading with my older brother meant that we both had to learn how to read fast upside down.

The newpaper incident I noticed when I found that the picture looked funny.

pro looks fine now. Its been... a week maybe? Looks fine now. Note to jsMath users - there's a little dohickey in the bottom right of the screen, you can muck around with things like options etc in there. Warning about trying to block the jsMath stuff, a product of using opera and hangtimes and stuff. I set mine to display the math at 150% for a duration of 5 years for instance.

Meh, I'm on a board with only prosilver, and I still don't like the feed as much. Then again, I wish there was a trn interface for the board.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

Where is the "Whats a skin?" option?
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McHell
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I'm of the "I've picked up there are skins, with *silver in the name, but don't ask me what's their point/advantages/drawbacks" persuasion. Don't fix what's not yet broken (but go ahead and try to break it).

Yes, I read LaTeX code not measurably slower than the nice output, so I don't see the point of shedding skin --- also as I'm switching between (own, borrowed & public) laptops & desktops and different browsers, too much bother. Here we're acting as if LaTeX is a write-only language (know how to write it but not read it anymore)?
[[[EDIT: I was under the impression that we were speaking "skins" as in "downloadable appearance changers" (think WinAmp skins) to be gotten from more or less trusted sources, and not just a button to click in the Control Panel settings. So no real problem switching between machines.]]]

On the contrary, if I'm going to write complex tex code then I'll have to be sure it's syntactically correct --- this is courtesy to the (less proficient, probably) readers, not my own comfort. So either it's simple enough code to be correct at first glance, or I check it elsewhere (hypothetically speaking).

So a TeXy-silver skin is useful only if you write very texy comments regularly.

[[[EDIT: that said, I'll be trying it prosilver-left now, as I can just throw this switch.]]]

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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I tried switching to prosilver when I read that subsilver wasn't supported.

I hated it and switched back.

Also, the attitude from the mods (or at least how it comes across) that I'm a second-class user because I don't use the appropriate skin is irritating enough where I don't see myself hanging around this forum too much longer.
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antonfire
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

Gosh, the attitude from these software designers. The way it comes across is that I'm a second-class user because I don't use the appropriate operating system. So irritating that I can't run their stuff on Windows 95.

Subsilver is deprecated. It happens. Things get out of date and lose support. You can't expect developers to keep everything compatible with everything. Such is the way of things, and that's all the mods have said.

I haven't seen a single post by a mod, in this thread or elsewhere, that implies that subsilver users are "second-class".
Jerry Bona wrote:The Axiom of Choice is obviously true; the Well Ordering Principle is obviously false; and who can tell about Zorn's Lemma?

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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

antonfire wrote:Gosh, the attitude from these software designers. The way it comes across is that I'm a second-class user because I don't use the appropriate operating system. So irritating that I can't run their stuff on Windows 95.

Subsilver is deprecated. It happens. Things get out of date and lose support. You can't expect developers to keep everything compatible with everything. Such is the way of things, and that's all the mods have said.

I haven't seen a single post by a mod, in this thread or elsewhere, that implies that subsilver users are "second-class".

Now, I will admit that I'm probably reading more into this, but I have an extra gland responsible for producing hatred of bad software developer disregard for end users.

This is the quote I was thinking of:
gmalivuk wrote:Because subsilver is no longer really supported, this and subsequent additions are probably not going to work right with it. You should switch to prosilver or prosilver_left if you really can't stand having the user information on the right side of your posts.

Because while all the resources just mentioned, the math and imath tags are still about the most convenient things for forum users to put into their posts, even if they're slightly less convenient for everyone else to read.

Now, I've run a forum in the past, and I understand that sometimes things are just damn near impossible to implement, but I also know that almost everything is hackable, and if there were a forum where I would expect someone to pipe up and say, "Oh, we can twerk that!" it would be here. I expect these forums to be more like Linux and less like Microsoft (to beat the OS analogy into the ground). Now, if it's just ridiculously prohibitive to figure out how to get TeX and subsilver, fine, I'll accept that as another one of life's annoyances, but there's no tone of "Hey, sorry, I know this sucks, but this is how things work" in gmalivuk's post. All I get from it is, "That doesn't work. Stop using the old skin. It's old. The new skin is better. Get used to it. (implied: Stop whining)"
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

mudge, write the code yourself.

It appears to be a post-processing scripting step that looks for the TeX in question and replaces it with mathematical symbols. If a feature is lacking and you care enough, go fix it!
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

Yakk wrote:mudge, write the code yourself.

It appears to be a post-processing scripting step that looks for the TeX in question and replaces it with mathematical symbols. If a feature is lacking and you care enough, go fix it!

If my coding skills were anywhere on this side of atrocious, I would
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Mathmagic
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

@Mudge

Okay, I don't think you're getting it. They will eventually be removing subsilver from the list of available skins.

Secondly, trying to hack an old skin theme that maybe 25% of members even use, and only 10% have trouble switching to prosilver, is the least of their concern right now.
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antonfire
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I'm pretty sure it does, actually.

gmalivuk wrote:Because subsilver is no longer really supported, this and subsequent additions are probably not going to work right with it. You should switch to prosilver or prosilver_left if you really can't stand having the user information on the right side of your posts.
Gosh, the gall of these software developers, suggesting that I should switch to Vista if I want the latest goodies. I like the way Windows 95 looks, dammit!
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Xanthir
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

mudge wrote:
antonfire wrote:Gosh, the attitude from these software designers. The way it comes across is that I'm a second-class user because I don't use the appropriate operating system. So irritating that I can't run their stuff on Windows 95.

Subsilver is deprecated. It happens. Things get out of date and lose support. You can't expect developers to keep everything compatible with everything. Such is the way of things, and that's all the mods have said.

I haven't seen a single post by a mod, in this thread or elsewhere, that implies that subsilver users are "second-class".

Now, I will admit that I'm probably reading more into this, but I have an extra gland responsible for producing hatred of bad software developer disregard for end users.

This is the quote I was thinking of:
gmalivuk wrote:Because subsilver is no longer really supported, this and subsequent additions are probably not going to work right with it. You should switch to prosilver or prosilver_left if you really can't stand having the user information on the right side of your posts.

Because while all the resources just mentioned, the math and imath tags are still about the most convenient things for forum users to put into their posts, even if they're slightly less convenient for everyone else to read.

Now, I've run a forum in the past, and I understand that sometimes things are just damn near impossible to implement, but I also know that almost everything is hackable, and if there were a forum where I would expect someone to pipe up and say, "Oh, we can twerk that!" it would be here. I expect these forums to be more like Linux and less like Microsoft (to beat the OS analogy into the ground). Now, if it's just ridiculously prohibitive to figure out how to get TeX and subsilver, fine, I'll accept that as another one of life's annoyances, but there's no tone of "Hey, sorry, I know this sucks, but this is how things work" in gmalivuk's post. All I get from it is, "That doesn't work. Stop using the old skin. It's old. The new skin is better. Get used to it. (implied: Stop whining)"

The two skins are exactly equivalent, modulo appearances. Do what the cool kids that hate how Prosilver looks do - use Stylish and hack up a new appearance for yourself. Learning enough CSS to do so is a lot easier than learning enough Javascript to duplicate jsMath.

I hate prosilver, but I don't wish extra unnecessary work on davean either. I'm cool with him settling on a single skin (well, two, but prosilver_left is only a line or two of CSS different) if it's easier to handle.
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Yakk
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

mudge wrote:
Yakk wrote:mudge, write the code yourself.

It appears to be a post-processing scripting step that looks for the TeX in question and replaces it with mathematical symbols. If a feature is lacking and you care enough, go fix it!

If my coding skills were anywhere on this side of atrocious, I would

Spend the next 5 to 10 years making them better, instead of getting pissed at people who have made this investment and won't solve your problems for you!

Subsilver is a skin that isn't being maintained by a developer. Those who aren't willing to develop, aren't willing to pay other people to develop, and still complain that they aren't being catered to are being silly.

Speaking of solving the problems, the javascript to do this is a script. I wonder if greasemonkey could inject a hacked version of it into an arbitrary skin? Heck, depending on how it might work, pull it off on arbitrary web pages.

As it is JS, it is done on the client side, so the source to the math scripting stuff has to be readable.

Hmm, Xanthir's solution might be easier.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Nimz
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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

Looks like somebody made a greasemonkey hack. Now I just need to figure out what that means. The script is actually pretty short
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

// ==UserScript==// @name           xkcd forums - jsMath// @description    Kickstarts jsMath on xkcd forums.// @namespace      http://koti.mbnet.fi/jyripyy/// @include        http://forums.xkcd.tld/*// @include        http://fora.xkcd.tld/*// @exclude        http://forums.xkcd.tld/download.php?*// @exclude        http:/fora.xkcd.tld/download.php?*// ==/UserScript==var scriptdivscriptdiv = document.createElement('div');scriptdiv.style.visibility = 'hidden';scriptdiv.innerHTML = '<SCRIPT SRC="/jsMath/plugins/autoload.js"></SCRIPT> \<SCRIPT> \  jsMath.Autoload.Run(); \  jsMath.Process(document); \</SCRIPT>';document.body.appendChild(scriptdiv);
I'm with ++\$_ that somebody should give jyripyy a cookie (and maybe an internet).
LOWA

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### Re: How many users of this forum use subsilver?

I'm using that GM script now