kaleidors wrote:When a woman acts in a masculine manner, she is told she is unladylike. But she is also told that she is incapable of doing manly things she’s attempting. That she’s acting uppity. That she should know her place. That she’s a witch*
You know, I really don't see that. All the tomboys I ever met are well-liked. No one's ever told them "know your role" or anything like that. Hell, I know dads who are happy their little girls are out there getting dirty. I've never met a parent who was happy their boy wanted to wear dresses and play with dolls, though. I don't know how prevalent this is, but I do think in general that tomboys are more well-received than your statement implies.
Little boys playing with dolls do have it harder then girls with trucks, but --
1) Depending on your parents, there are still limits (although more lax). Tomboys still wear panties, not boxers or briefs Tomboys still might have to dress up as a girl character on halloween, etc. My friend who has a tomboy, when they have the ablility to create a character, he makes her create females "so she doesn't forget she's a girl".
2) Tomboy is a childhood phase -- the older you are, the less "tomboy" is the norm: Boyish little girl = tomboy, mannish grown women = butch. Starting at puberty and slowly afterword, you are gently pressured to a more feminine demeanor. It's hard to pick out the 50 yr old tomboy.
3) The are still judged by the same social stigmas. As a child, when her friends are playing shorts she will probably not be picked for team captain. When you stand up for yourself and act aggressively, that's when people say "Who does she think she is?" When similar behavior is more accepted in men. And you're still told that you suck at math and that football is not for you.
Also, it's frustrating that whenever you best a boy at something, his friends will turn to him and say "dude, you totally lost to a girl." But it does feel better when he says "So? You did too."
zahlman wrote:I'd like to take this opportunity to explain a few things about myself,
One of the reasons I felt unable to resist the pull of this discussion in the first place is that I spent much of my adolescence in a quite sexually repressed state, feeling constantly threatened by the looming sense that "modern" society was implicitly distrustful of me. That the equipment that entitled me to the title of "man" by definition instead earned the title of "potential rapist" by social decree. ...Words fail me when it comes to describing how it feels, to label yourself as a stalker, because you were too shy to come out and say something. To feel as if you are becoming what you hate the most. To fear every night that you might grow up to be a rapist. ...
And all the time being immersed in a culture of sexuality - peer pressure (not that I felt pressured, mind; just that it served to remind me of what was going on), advertising, hormones. My first kiss was at the tender age of - wait for it - 19 and 10 months. That was actually abnormal enough to bother me, over all the other ways I stood out significantly from the norm and didn't give a damn.
I'm sorry: that sucks. Your story remind me of my friend. He was a sweet, funny, intellegent boy, but his neck beard, greasy looking hair and thick glasses gave him a scruffy appearance. He was a little odd--had a dry, quick wit and a love of musicals, muppets, DnD and indie music. He spoke quietly, so you had to lean in to hear him. And he also liked to give hugs, put his arm around your shoulder, or otherwise be affectionete to girls he thought of as friends. The combination of weirdness, and the personal space issues (too close to hear him, too touchy) caused him a lot of heartache. The incident I think that hurt him the most is that he would go in and to talk with this girl he had a crush on who worked at the coffee shop. Apparently, one day the manager intercepted him and told him he was no longer welcome there, that he was making his staff uncomfortable. He could see the girl peering around the corner, looking downright afraid. The whole incident made him feel like snot.
Also – my husband didn’t kiss anyone till he was almost 20. I was kissed against my will at 14, and it was so horrible I didn’t kiss anyone again till I was 22. I have a host of other friends whose first kiss happened between 17 and 20+, so you’re not that abnormal.
...It's actually difficult for me to sympathize with rape victims (I reject the term "rape survivor" for most cases; when you imply that something could have killed the target, you should be either serious or totally hyperbolic, and neither tone is appropriate in the case of rape. Would you speak of an "arson survivor", if the property owner were not present at the time of the fire?). Don't get me wrong; it's a horrible thing that's happened to them (and I feel bad even writing the previous sentence, but it's an accurate description of my emotional state), but it serves to remind me that society, at large, couldn't give a damn about my own traumas. Of course, I will probably never actually know what rape "feels like" (and even then, the argument can be made that one of the rare cases of female-on-male rape, or even a homosexual rape, is an entirely different matter), but I imagine that most people (in particular, most women) will never really be able to sympathize with what I've been through, either. So when someone says "how dare you trivialize that", all I can think is "NO U"
I understand what you mean with your metaphor for "rape survivor", but I think your analogy is off and I disagree with it anyway. You are disagreeing with the implied escalation of tragedy when someone is raped vs. murdered or accosted, right? That's not what people are talking about when they're encouraging people to use that term. They're trying to overcome a victim philosophy. They're saying "Yes, I was raped. It happened, but I survived.
I'm moving on with my life; I'm not going to be a victim my whole life." In this case it really doesn't matter what you or I think of the survivor term, because it's really for the people who where attacked.
It's odd how our sympathies align. Someone commits a crime; you are accused of that crime by a jury of peers and end up suffering instead of the criminal. You are repeatedly told that you the bad guy, and that there’s no sympathy for you like there is for the victim. You are angry at your peers, which is understandable. It’s also normal that by repeatedly defending yourself from wrongdoing that become angry at the victim and sympathize with the villain. Yet the villain is the one who wronged you. You are taking the punishment for his offense. And it’s not like you can only feel sorry for one person in this scenario. Both you and the victim where wronged; both of you can get sympathy. It’s not a tragedy competition-although it can feel that way.
DeadCatX2 wrote:Actually, if you meant "men suck at cooking", then I do think it would generate roughly the same effect. It's still stereotyping someone else because they're in a different "class", and the stereotypes are probably roughly as popular.
I’d say this is easier to disprove. There are tons of accomplished, famous male chefs. Don’t know as many well known female mathematicians.
Also, I’m equally annoyed with that “myth” as well. It played out in my household with my husband saying “Gee, honey I’m just not as naturally good at this cooking and cleaning stuff as a women. It’s too hard for poor little old male me. I just lack a uterus. Why don’t I go apply my talents to something men are inherently good at, like my MMORPG, and you take care of it, k?” Not that I’m saying all men do this (I hope). Just my little tale of woe not to be taken evidence of one thing or another.
Also: left handed scissors! Why are you so rare? Why are you never at hand when I need to cut something, leaving my scissor work to look like I cut it with my teeth?