Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

[MotorToad]

Why would you think that bottle would be better than a can? Cans are a much superior package than glass all around in my opinion yet there's this stigma (not saying you have it) that many people have that canning is bad, even Rodenbach cans their beers in Belgium. New liners inside the cans don't give the beer a metallic taste anymore, cans are easier to recycle, lighter weight so they cost less to ship, less product loss from breakage, light can't penetrate and skunk the beer, bottle caps aren't always on perfectly which can lead to oxidation, yadda yadda. Many craft breweries are starting to can, even New Belgium now. Taste an imported beer in the can and bottle side by side and many times you'll be amazed at the difference, almost always with those in the green and clear bottles which are often light struck and skunky.

I'm obviously not up on canning, but it has a hell of a stigma it's going to have to lose here. Too many years of Coors Light and such being the "canned beer" when the tasty stuff came in a brown bottle.

That reminds me of an old story. I once made a beer run at a party where I only knew 4-5 people out of 30 or so. I took up a collection and they asked for Bud in the bottle. Well, I get to the store and there's a huge sale on cans, like better than half the price of the bottled, so I get a fucking ton of bud cans (and beer for myself). When I get back these guys are steamed that I got cans and actually went to the store themselves to get Bud in bottles. I mean... BUDWEISER... like stabbing your brain with ricewater makes a difference if it's glass or tin. I didn't let it bother me, though, that I pissed them off so much as they're certainly not the type of folks I'd be able to hang out with!

On the subject of American Beer being fantastic... This year's World Beer Cup featured 644 breweries from 58 countries with 2,864 beers entered in 91 beer style categories. 129 judges from 21 countries participated in this year’s competition, working in teams to conduct blind tasting evaluations of the beers and determine the Gold/Silver/Bronze awards. 64 percent of the judges were from outside of the United States. Brewers from the United States won 185 awards of the 268. Congrats to the Australians with 6 medals, one, maybe even two of them were golds.

Ah, yes, thank-you for this. Bashing American beer is like saying there are no pretty women here because Oprah gets all the TV time.

[Felstaff]

Beer in a bottle tastes better than a can because I don't like the metallic element taste in my drinks, not because of the content or supposed superiority of bottled brews.

Fleeting Beer Thought: Oh, Nastro Azzurro Peroni! You are one of the finer peronis to grace my taste buds. You bat thirst out the way with a haughty glove, and pummel on the front door of oral sensation. If you were a woman, I'd write you a love letter. Presumably saying sorry for removing the top of your head with a simple piece of leverage, and then drinking your fluids.

[Chaz]

Beer in a bottle tastes better than a can because I don't like the metallic element taste in my drinks

Many blind taste studies would beg to differ on the metallic taste existing these days for a good amount of beer. Many canned beer are winning awards in competitions where they wouldn't if they had metallic off flavors as it's not to style...

Unless you're drinking straight out of the can (when you should be pouring into a glass no matter if it's a can or a bottle) you shouldn't have the problem as the beer wouldn't touch any non lined part of the can... I haven't had a metallic tasting beer or soda in years, the liners inside have been much improved. Canning has an uphill battle to face though as old liners weren't up to snuff and people had bad experiences with metallic off flavors leached into the beverage. Pick up a Dale's Pale Ale, New Belgium Fat Tire, 21st Amendment IPA, no metal flavors there. The Canadian microbrew scene has been doing it for years too.

[Mathmagic]

Just because we produce some of the worst, doesn't mean we don't *also* produce some of the best, see previous post.

That's exactly my point...

Here, I'll show you how the conversation could have gone, and it would have been the same thing:

The amazing thing to me is that the best beers in the world are made right here in the land Down Under.

...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *falls off chair*

I've had Budweiser. You have no room to laugh, and I have to assume you have this reaction out of ignorance.

Yeah, and he's probably had Foster's.

Just because we produce some of the worst, doesn't mean we don't *also* produce some of the best

[hermaj]

Wow, guys, come on. Joking about American beer has been a pretty long standing thing here (cue: sex in a canoe joke), so I made the standard joke, jokingly. I honestly do not care enough about beer to know whether or not I was right or even care whether or not I was right, since being right has nothing to even do with making a pretty much obligatory joke. That whole thing probably could have stopped at Chaz, who responded well and lightly, and seemed to recognise that I was by no means "bashing".

[Azrael]

This must be, like ... the internet or something.

[MotorToad]

Wow, guys, come on. Joking about American beer has been a pretty long standing thing here (cue: sex in a canoe joke), so I made the standard joke, jokingly. I honestly do not care enough about beer to know whether or not I was right or even care whether or not I was right, since being right has nothing to even do with making a pretty much obligatory joke. That whole thing probably could have stopped at Chaz, who responded well and lightly, and seemed to recognise that I was by no means "bashing".

We stand in the shadow of Anheuser Busch, we go to bars where there could be 15 undrinkable drafts, we've heard the canoe joke... a lot. This is a place where Coor's Light can legally be called "beer." I hope you can understand our insecurities. If you meant it humorously, though, it didn't come across so at all.

[recurve boy]

I love the idea that all American beer is shit because of Budweiser. The US was extremely well respected for their beer before the Great Depression (when Budweiser, Miller, and Coors all changed to rice), and as Chaz so generously pointed out, the US isn't doing half bad in international competition these days, either.

That's fair. But it's also a little fair isn't it? American's really drink it don't they?

It's not like Foster's which is some crazy international joke.

[Tau_Zero]

As an American, I find our general acceptance of fermented urine as a beverage embarrassing. We need a way to get Regular Joe to start drinking good stuff, both from the US and abroad, and College Guy to at least drink something that is worthy of the term beer.

[22/7]

I love the idea that all American beer is shit because of Budweiser. The US was extremely well respected for their beer before the Great Depression (when Budweiser, Miller, and Coors all changed to rice), and as Chaz so generously pointed out, the US isn't doing half bad in international competition these days, either.

That's fair. But it's also a little fair isn't it? American's really drink it don't they?

It's not like Foster's which is some crazy international joke.

Yes, Americans drink it. If I'm at a party and it's the beer being served, I'll drink it, too. Yes, it's shitty beer. And? I don't see how that means that "American beer is shit". And I guess if we're discussing Australian beers, then you've got to answer for Toohey's New (well, all the Toohey's I tried, actually). My point is that the mass-produced swill made by a given country is not the best indicator of the quality of that country's beer. If you need some more convincing evidence of that, check out Chaz's previous post about the World Beer Cup.

Wow, guys, come on. Joking about American beer has been a pretty long standing thing here (cue: sex in a canoe joke), so I made the standard joke, jokingly. I honestly do not care enough about beer to know whether or not I was right or even care whether or not I was right, since being right has nothing to even do with making a pretty much obligatory joke. That whole thing probably could have stopped at Chaz, who responded well and lightly, and seemed to recognise that I was by no means "bashing".

To be fair, you came into a thread where people who really enjoy good beer were talking about good beer, and when someone takes a shot at American brews in such a thread, well, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, but I am saying that you should probably be prepared for someone to take what you're saying seriously.

[Will]

To be fair, you came into a thread where people who really enjoy good beer were talking about good beer, and when someone takes a shot at American brews in such a thread, well, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, but I am saying that you should probably be prepared for someone to take what you're saying seriously.

This. Those of us Americans that actually like good beer are maybe a little sore that our country has a reputation for brewing nothing but piss, especially when that's not actually the case.

We need a way to get Regular Joe to start drinking good stuff, both from the US and abroad, and College Guy to at least drink something that is worthy of the term beer.

Sadly, this will never happen. Do you know why Regular Joe and, especially, College Guy drink piss beer? Because it's cheap. It costs a lot more to produce a rich, tasty beer than watered-down urine.

[hermaj]

Wow, guys, come on. Joking about American beer has been a pretty long standing thing here (cue: sex in a canoe joke), so I made the standard joke, jokingly. I honestly do not care enough about beer to know whether or not I was right or even care whether or not I was right, since being right has nothing to even do with making a pretty much obligatory joke. That whole thing probably could have stopped at Chaz, who responded well and lightly, and seemed to recognise that I was by no means "bashing".

To be fair, you came into a thread where people who really enjoy good beer were talking about good beer, and when someone takes a shot at American brews in such a thread, well, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, but I am saying that you should probably be prepared for someone to take what you're saying seriously.

Yeah, definitely wasn't wise, but definitely wasn't malicious. Friends? *hands out awesome beer*

[Azrael]

Hey! These are just Fosters can's with hand-printed "Teegan Ale" labels taped over them!

Darn you, you tricksy Aussies! Darn you straight to the wrong side of the world!

[22/7]

Yeah, definitely wasn't wise, but definitely wasn't malicious. Friends? *hands out awesome beer*

Sure! I mean, as long as you're handing out awesome bee

Hey! These are just Fosters can's with hand-printed "Teegan Ale" labels taped over them!

Darn you, you tricksy Aussies! Darn you straight to the wrong side of the world!

What?!?! Fuck this shit! Trying to buy me off with shitty beer. You should be ashamed of yourself!

Also, now that you're darned straight home, could you get me a Little Creatures Pale Ale? Cause if you could do that, I'd completely forgive you for trying to pass off Fosters as so-called "awesome beer" and we could be friends again.

[l33t_sas]

Other contributions: Lemonade and beer is done here too, it is called a shandy. I have never had one because lemonade belongs with vodka. l33t_sas, have you tried Blue Tongue? I am not huge on beer but I rather like that one. Might be a bit pricey for you, though. I also like Cascade Premium Light. I can't remember the price of that one, though. It is Tasmanian, but do not let that scare you off.

I have tried Cascade Premium Ligh and to be honest, I'm not a fan. I'll check Blue Tongue out, thanks

Anything similar to the ones I mentioned above, affordable and easy to procure that people can recommend me?

I drink Pure Blonde if only for the low carb quality. Crown is not so bad. But Corona? C'mon.

I like Little Creatures, Coopers, Squires, James Boag. I recently tried Barefoot Radler. This is a funny one. It has lime and lemon infused into it. It's not quite fruity, so I think I like it.

The Belgian beers are awesome. Head down to Dan Murphy's. My local one has a surprising array of Belgians.

As I mentioned above, I am underage and though I do have a form of ID that while dodgy looking has only ever failed me once (while trying to get into Porcupine Tree, grrr) I don't particularly fancy going to big busy place like Dan Murphy's. I'll look around in my local bottleshop for some of these. Thanks

I have. Also, no true Australian drinks Fosters! That is the crap we send off to you people because we've tried your stuff and we figure you don't know any better.

This is true. I don't think I've ever seen anyone drink Fosters. Although I am from Victoria where I think VB is the standard. *shudder*

[mosc]

I have. Also, no true Australian drinks Fosters! That is the crap we send off to you people because we've tried your stuff and we figure you don't know any better.

You know sometimes, you just want a beer. I was in Yankee stadium and my choices were:
-Fosters in a 22oz for $9.00
-Bud 12oz $6.00
-Bud light 12oz $6.00
-MGD 12oz $6.00
-Miller Lite 12oz $6.00

You get the fosters.

[MotorToad]

HAHAHA! So Foster's is cheaper than the other crap and it's even mostly drinkable. Not much of a decision there.

I've actually found those big Foster's cans to be useful for walkabouts. A friend got new tires on his car and wanted to impress me with how much he'd learned about driving... and immediately augured his car into a curb, ripping the suspension apart. He was about to call his gf for a ride home and I said "nah, we'll get a couple beers at the junior store, walk back and get a bit of a buzz to flush that adrenalin out." Foster's was exactly the beer for that situation. Last w/e a friend and I took a few Old Chubs out on a drink/walk and that's pretty much exactly not the beer you want to drink when you're walking. It's not so light, eh.

[n4ry4]

Anybody had Founders (anything) before? They're a small brewery out of Grand Rapids, Michigan, but rapidly expanding. Extremely creative with their brewing, they have a lot of styles you don't see everywhere.

Also, any Young's Double Chocolate Stout fans here (on tap only for me; waaaay better than can or bottle).

[mosc]

They came to a brewing festival I was at recently. I didn't much care for any of their stuff. That could just be because they didn't bring anything darker than an ale though (not sure what all they make)...

[Dream]

I went to the Yarra valley on Wednesday, to check out some wineries. Instead of finding good wines, we found great beers. In Yarra Glen we came across a restaraunt owned by Hargreaves Hill brewing company. After ordering only two starters, they were happy to have us sit in their main dining room, taking up an eight place table by the open fire, and sip at their wonderful beers for four hours. We tried their IPA and their Dubbel, and a tasting boat of their whole range, but the stand out beer of the afternoon was their Extra Special Bitter. It was a wonderful orange brown colour, and had an aroma of passion fruit. I spent the last three years in Edinburgh drinking the finest bitters on the planet every day, and this one was still a revelation. A really top notch beer. Now I just have to find a place to buy it. First bottle shop with Hargreaves wins my custom forever

[Heisenberg]

Also, any Young's Double Chocolate Stout fans here (on tap only for me; waaaay better than can or bottle).

That beer is delicious. I have not had the luxury of finding it on tap, though.

[Azrael]

Also, any Young's Double Chocolate Stout fans here (on tap only for me; waaaay better than can or bottle).

That beer is delicious. I have not had the luxury of finding it on tap, though.

Are you certain?

[Chaz]

Founder's makes some excellent beer, especially their Ryes and Breakfast Stout.

they didn't bring anything darker than an ale

I haven't a clue what that means...

[Amarantha]

Ya, nearly all the darkest beers are ales (stout, porter, Trappist Tripels etc). You get some dark lagers (German, mostly), but they're fairly uncommon in the scheme of things. Lambics are just... lambics; the concept of dark is kinda irrelevant there.

[Dream]

If you want to be historically very strict about it, beer and ale are different things. But the last time the distinction was made, people were still marvelling at this new-fangled "bottling" process.

[Amarantha]

Cool, have you got a source for that? Everything I ever read just said that ale is top-fermented beer, lager is bottom-fermented beer and the lambic family is spontaneously-fermented beer.

[Belial]

Also, any Young's Double Chocolate Stout fans here (on tap only for me; waaaay better than can or bottle).

That beer is delicious. I have not had the luxury of finding it on tap, though.

Are you certain?

I've only seen it in the orange and purple cans.

Delicious.

[Azrael]

Also, any Young's Double Chocolate Stout fans here (on tap only for me; waaaay better than can or bottle).

That beer is delicious. I have not had the luxury of finding it on tap, though.

Are you certain?

I've only seen it in the orange and purple cans.
Delicious.

Interestingly, I haven't seen it at all.

[Belial]

....wow. I missed that. I should look at peoples' names more.

[Chaz]

Cool, have you got a source for that?

Originally the difference between Beer and Ale was a distinction between hopped and unhopped fermented beverages. Ales did not contain hops.

[Bakemaster]

For some reason completely unbeknownst to me, I haven't read any of this thread, at all, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned, but: A couple weeks ago I tried some beer Sarah brought back from CA by the name of Black Butte Porter. Sooooooo goooooooood. Apparently it's made in Bend, Oregon. I thought it was a kitschy souvenir-beer because she also had some Weed stuff that was good but not outstanding—until I tasted it and went woah. I don't know if it's sold on this coast, have yet to go looking.

[PictureSarah]

You'd probably like the Shastafarian Porter if you like the Black Butte Porter (made by Deschutes Brewery). They taste pretty similar. I think I have one left in my fridge if you want it. The one you tried that was good but not amazing was the Weed Golden Ale. When I worked at the restaurant, we had the Lemurian Lager and the Shastafarian Porter on tap, and people seemed to order the lager a lot more. They're only available at stores and restaurants in California, Oregon and Washington. I think that the restaurant at the brewery in Weed opened this month, if you want when we're there in August we can go for a tour of the brewery or meal at the place there, complete with on tap pints.

[SecondTalon]

Cool, have you got a source for that?

Originally the difference between Beer and Ale was a distinction between hopped and unhopped fermented beverages. Ales did not contain hops.

And that changed in.. what, the 1600s? Maybe even earlier?

[mosc]

I use "ale" to describe a more specific genre of medium bodied, medium colored, european style ales. Bass is the best example but also things like Sammuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale, Newcastle Brown Ale, etc.

When I say they didn't bring anything darker than an ale, I'm saying they didn't bring anything darker than any of those.

[Chaz]

Seems pretty goofy to me. Especially since well, pretty much every book on beer categorizes an ale as anything with an ale yeast... and that it has nothing to do with color, body or origin of the beer. Not to mention within your "ale category" there's a quite a range of difference between an English Pale Ale (Bass) and a Northern English Brown Ale (Newcastle/Sam Smith), in ingredients, water profiles, color and taste.

[Dream]

I don't have an original source on the differences between beer and ale, as I read it in a real book sometime, that I have now forgotten the name of. I read quite a lot about alcoholic drinks, and mostly forget where what came from. Chaz is right about the hopped/unhopped thing, and I think the change took place much later than the 1600s. Probably 18th century or maybe 19th. I can't remember right now. I probably read some of these things in something from CAMRA, who are awesome people. See?:

The Campaign for Real Ale

EDIT: Chaz & Mosc: These are the beer styles according to CAMRA, leaving out lagers, of course:

Mild: low in hop character these beers may be dark or light. Generally of a lower strength than (less than 4% abv) but may be strong (e.g Sarah Hughes Dark Ruby Mild at 6%abv).

Bitter: the most common beer style. Usually brown, tawny, copper or amber coloured with medium to strong bitterness, light to medium malt character may be present. Less than 4% abv in strength.

Best Bitter: more robust than ordinary bitters. Brown, tawny, copper or amber coloured with medium to strong bitterness and a more evident maltiness. 4% - 4.6% abv in strength.

Porter: complex in flavour and typically black or dark brown. The darkness comes from the use of dark malts. Full mouthfeel and a pronounced finish through bitter hopping. 4 – 6.5% abv in strength.

Stout: Typically black in colour. Initial malt and caramel flavour with a distinctive dry roast bitterness in the finish. The dry roast character is achieved by the use of roasted barley. 4- 8 % abv in strength.

Barley Wines: range in colour from copper to tawny and dark brown. They may have a high sweetness due to residual sugars although some barley wines are fermented right out to give a dry finish. They have an almost vinous appearance in the glass and may have a strength of between 6.5 – 12% abv. The estery and fruity characteristics are counter balanced by medium to assertive bitterness.

Golden Ales: A recent innovation. These are pale amber, gold, yellow or straw coloured beers with light to strong bitterness and a strong hop character which create a refreshing taste. Strength less than 5.3% abv.

So, ale/not ale isn't really the distinction, it's more about different styles of ale.

[Chaz]

These are the beer styles according to CAMRA, leaving out lagers

And the many other non-Lager beer styles, both in the ales and wild yeast varieties. CAMRA is very British-centric and don't really go beyond the styles other than traditional beers from the area (and those descriptions are fairly broad), still do good to promote good English beer though.

I mean, no Hefeweizen (which is an ale and doesn't fit any of those styles)?

So, ale/not ale isn't really the distinction, it's more about different styles of ale.

Definitely. An ale can be golden and light colored or dark as night (as can a Lager or a Wild/Spontaneous brewed beer), it's all about the style. The kind of yeast (ale/lager/etc.) is just the overall category, like say rock music, and within rock music there's many different subgenres or styles. There's a big difference between Death Metal and a Jam Band, but they're still both rock in the end.

It really irks me when I hear people say, "I hate lagers (or ales with lite lager drinkers who had one style of ale they didn't like) and I won't drink them" when what they usually mean is they don't like a certain style of lager, commonly Lite Lagers such as Budweiser, Miller, Stella, etc. and when offered a Bock and they turn it down thinking it must taste like a Bud because it's a lager... ask There's a world of a difference between a Budweiser and a Doppelbock or a Schwarzbier. Same with people and their dark beer stigma, there's full bodied dark beer and light ones, ones that are fairly bitter and ones that aren't, just because it's dark doesn't mean it all goes down the same. [/rant]

Personally, I think the BJCP has the best and most detailed breakdown on styles.

[Dream]

These are the beer styles according to CAMRA, leaving out lagers

And the many other non-Lager beer styles, both in the ales and wild yeast varieties. CAMRA is very British-centric and don't really go beyond the styles other than traditional beers from the area (and those descriptions are fairly broad), still do good to promote good English beer though.

I mean, no Hefeweizen (which is an ale and doesn't fit any of those styles)?

Yeah. There are many ales of different kinds, from all over the world, but the British styles are the most common, having spread to the USA and Ireland, Australia, etc. Also, the beers referred to by mosc were all British.

CAMRA are obviously quite specific in their interests, but they are also very, very successful at whst they do, and are one of the big authorities on British style ale.

The BJCP style guide looks good, though I disagree with their separating of high gravity versions of traditional styles into separate categories. The two I noticed were "Imperial" Pale Ale, which is just regular IPA at 7-10% abv, and Export Stout being separate from Stout. I noticed a couple of their typical examples being a little individual for my taste, I'd prefer to see them recommend classic styles as typical of a particular category. Their first example of an 80/- is Orkney Dark Island, which is almost as dark and toasted as Dry Stout, and harly typical of the style. Good breadth though, everything seems to be in there somewhere.

[Chaz]

The BJCP style guide looks good, though I disagree with their separating of high gravity versions of traditional styles into separate categories.

I guess you can disagree but I see them as completely different beers, not just in gravity, but many other things. Really only the Scottish Ales are defined differently mostly due to gravity, which makes sense historically even if there's some variations between them.

I'm not sure where you're from, but here in America, an Imperial IPA for example, (I'm assuming you mean that, not Imp Pale Ale?), when you taste it, it's much different from a regular IPA and all the examples listed are American I think which is why I'm wondering how familiar you are with the style as they have it.

The grain bill is different, the malt flavor profile is different, the amount of hops is different. An IPA is more about a nice balance between malt and hops where an Imperial IPA is about tipping the scale and showing off the hops, not just making a bigger IPA, there's no emphasis on the malt.

Some people are actually trying to push the BJCP into adding a Double IPA category, which would basically be as you suggest, a bigger, high gravity IPA.

Export Stout being separate from Stout.

There's a world of a difference between two in my opinion... and I say this as someone who just spent a few weeks in Ireland this year doing brewery and distillery tours.

Their first example of an 80/- is Orkney Dark Island, which is almost as dark and toasted as Dry Stout, and harly typical of the style.

[/quote][/quote]
Can't say I'm too familiar with 80 shilling so I can't really comment... but when it comes down to Scottish Ale as mentioned above, it might be partially a gravity issue.

The BJCP is comprised of many people from around the world though who travel the countries, sit and come to a compromise on what defines their style guidelines, even CAMRA members, so I feel they do a pretty good job overall.

[Dream]

I'm not sure where you're from, but here in America, an Imperial IPA for example, (I'm assuming you mean that, not Imp Pale Ale?), when you taste it, it's much different from a regular IPA and all the examples listed are American I think which is why I'm wondering how familiar you are with the style as they have it.

The grain bill is different, the malt flavor profile is different, the amount of hops is different. An IPA is more about a nice balance between malt and hops where an Imperial IPA is about tipping the scale and showing off the hops, not just making a bigger IPA, there's no emphasis on the malt.

Well, IPA to me is a heavily hopped style. There is often malt present, but that is far from its defining characteristic. Balance is the opposite of what IPA actually means, as it is a beer designed to be overloaded with hops to survive weeks of sea transport, and intended to be bitter yet light to suit tropical climates in the days before the popularity of lager. Each and every decent IPA I've come across is in this style. So, I don't understand what the beers you categorise as regular, non-Imperial IPA are. Balance between hops and malt sounds a lot more like one of the less heavy bitters, to be honest.

While I haven't tried any of the beers listed as Imperial IPA, from the descriptions they sound exactly like what I described: very alcoholic, particularly bitter IPA. But still IPA.

Export Stout being separate from Stout.

There's a world of a difference between two in my opinion... and I say this as someone who just spent a few weeks in Ireland this year doing brewery and distillery tours.

I spent the better part of a decade drinking Stout in Ireland. Most "export" and "foreign" stouts are more than similar enough to be in the same category. They have many. many more sames than they have differences.

Overall, I wonder how narrowly you define these categories. To me, every style of beer has a very broad definition, in order to include the vastly different expressions possible with the very same ingredients and processes. If you dump a load of hops into an IPA brew and ferment it out to total dryness, it's going to have a very particular flavour. However, it will most likely be recognisably IPA style, and certainly so when compared to other styles. You, and the BJCP seem to have categories the way the Grammys have categories. Everyone who's just a little different gets their own special niche, because otherwise it just wouldn't be fair.