Marathon

[Izawwlgood]

I'm training for the Chicago marathon. It'll be my first. Since I've never done one before, I'm hoping to break four hours (~9min mile pace). The events in about 6 wks, and I'm up to 15 miles or so for my training jogs, which I finish reasonably tired and sore, but manage to run pretty evenly with a final half mile or 3/4 mil faster pace (~6min mile pace for the close).

The marathons to raise money for AIDS research, so I'm raising money for that. I also discovered Penny Arcades Childs Play and was pretty impressed, so will be splitting my charity 50/50 between the marathons charity and Childs Play. PM me if you're interested in sponsoring me. (/plug) It's tax deductible (//plug)

So since I've been running a lot more this summer, some points:
1) I've lost weight. About 2 inches off my waistline. My arms are much smaller then normal, and my quads are strong like bull. My rock climbing 'fitness' has dropped dramatically, and I have more or less neglected upper body workouts for the last 2 months, but my legs and core feel great. When walking quickly, my calves often feel like an idling Corvette (/plug)
2) I've become very interested in the natural rhythms of the body in action. The metronome of an elevated heart rate, the steady whooosh-inhale, ahhhhhhh-exhale, the thudding of sneakers on asphalt. When I listen to music with beats similar to those I run at, my heart starts to pick up, and my legs itch to move. We are no sedentary creatures, and while I certainly can't multiply 3-digit numbers as I run, it's the best meditation I've ever found. The human body, as it equilibrates towards action, operates more optimally when it's burning calories and receiving the repetitive shocks of a jog.
3) My running shorts fall off my ass when I sprint. The bikers love it. I swear, they do.
4) In the Gods Must be Crazy II, one of the bushmen points at the horizon and goes "I will go speak to our neighbors, if I run all day and all night, I'll be there by morning" and turns point and jogs off towards the distance. In 10,000 B.C., one of the tribesmen points at the horizon and goes "We must speak with the people who live over there." and they run for the horizon. There was a time when our nomadic lifestyles resulted in marathons worth of distance being traversed daily, all as part of the commute. I dig it.
5) Also, it is in fact the only sporting event modeled after an action that killed it's first 'competitor'. (///plug)


Anyone have any running or marathon input?

[Vellyr]

5) Also, it is in fact the only sporting event modeled after an action that killed it's first 'competitor'.

I actually didn't know this. This makes me wonder, even more than watching the Olympics and reading stuff on the Crossfit site: Why did this become such a popular sport and measure of "fitness"? I agree with you on the other points. Running is great for you, but running 26 miles is stupid, especially if you do it on a regular basis.

As for this

4) In the Gods Must be Crazy II, one of the bushmen points at the horizon and goes "I will go speak to our neighbors, if I run all day and all night, I'll be there by morning" and turns point and jogs off towards the distance. In 10,000 B.C., one of the tribesmen points at the horizon and goes "We must speak with the people who live over there." and they run for the horizon. There was a time when our nomadic lifestyles resulted in marathons worth of distance being traversed daily, all as part of the commute. I dig it.

Ignoring that both of those are movies, and not actual historical accounts, the horizon is usually not a marathon away. On flat ground it's only about 5k away (Wikipedia). In any case, I doubt even our primitive ancestors ran distances like that as frequently as modern-day "Marathon runners".

I think it's great that you're running, getting in shape and feeling good. Keep in mind that you're only a little over halfway to your goal at this point. If you want to run a Marathon just to say you did, or to push yourself to your limit, or because you want to give to a good cause, that's great. However, I would advise against making a habit of it. Humans just aren't built to do that.

[Izawwlgood]

Running is great for you, but running 26 miles is stupid, especially if you do it on a regular basis.

I don't know if this is just runners talking up their event, but I've been told time and time again by the dudes at Fleet Feet that it's impossible to be in running shape and store enough calories to run a marathon, you have to stock up around the 20-22mile mark to finish.

But yeah, Pheidippides, the runner who purportedly did it first, purportedly died when he delivered his message. Whether or not that's true, the awesomeness of some royal up and ups to say "Hmm, we need an event in between the longer sprint and the wrestling... I know!" is tantamount.

the horizon is usually not a marathon away.

A very good point, but I was referring more to the awe at A) traveling beyond what you can see by power of your own two feet, and B) awe at what lives 'beyond the horizon'. But yes, if you can run to the horizon, meh.

Keep in mind that you're only a little over halfway to your goal at this point.

.... I know... ::goes for another jog::

Humans just aren't built to do that.

Marathons maybe, but running certainly! We're the best long distance runners on the planet! I wouldn't suggest we run 20+ miles every day, but middle distance (10ish miles) is a reasonable daily or near daily exercise (i'd say). People routinely do Ultramarathons, which is just an insane test of our ability to function as jogging robots.

[Patrick Donnelly]

... the thudding of sneakers on asphalt...

Just think about that tidbit for a while. What causes the thudding? What does the thudding mean? What are possible consequences of the thudding? Are there different kinds of thudding? When is the thudding loud or quiet? Etc.

I've got a long rant on that, which I'll post later on. For now, just think about it.


As for distance running... Who knows if humans did it on a regular basis thousands of years ago? Maybe some did, some didn't. It would have depended on the environment and culture you were in. Humans are able to run 26 miles, and even over 100, and they are able to do so without sustaining any significant damage (ideally), but for people to consider running the epitome of fitness is just plain retarded.

I can also do the "I have strong legs" rant, if someone would like me to.

[Izawwlgood]

Just think about that tidbit for a while. What causes the thudding? What does the thudding mean? What are possible consequences of the thudding? Are there different kinds of thudding? When is the thudding loud or quiet? Etc.

Not sure where you're trying to go with this...

but for people to consider running the epitome of fitness is just plain retarded.

Your ability to move yourself is a pretty good measure of fitness. There are many way's to move yourself, but running is more efficient then swimming (in calories spent/distance traveled anyway).

I can also do the "I have strong legs" rant, if someone would like me to.

Jealous that you can't run distance perhaps? For the record I can squat about five times my weight.

[Gypsy King]

Humans just aren't built to do that.

I would disagree. Persistence hunting has been shown to trace back thousands of years; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

Biological evidence suggesting we are evolved for running includes the ability to sweat, which is vital in cooling during exercise, and allows persistence hunting to be successful. Also the presence of the nuchal ligament, which steadies the head when running. Present in humans and also dogs, but not pigs or monkeys!

[Patrick Donnelly]

Not sure where you're trying to go with this...

I'll get to it later still.

Your ability to move yourself is a pretty good measure of fitness. There are many way's to move yourself, but running is more efficient then swimming (in calories spent/distance traveled anyway).

What about your ability to move things outside of yourself? Your day is full of both moving yourself and external objects. Focusing on just one of those things is plain silly.

Also: Cycling is the most efficient form of human transportation, so why isn't it the standard measure of fitness in society? (Even though it too would be a bad standard.)

I can also do the "I have strong legs" rant, if someone would like me to.

Jealous that you can't run distance perhaps? For the record I can squat about five times my weight.

I said squat, not leg press.

For the record, I ran Cross Country for three years - two of which were before realizing how stupid it was, the third was simply to get it on my college applications.

[Izawwlgood]

I'll get to it later still.

Um, at your leisure then I suppose.

What about your ability to move things outside of yourself?

Because your ability to move other things is often dependent on your size, and you can be quite large and strong, and in quite bad shape.

Also: Cycling is the most efficient form of human transportation,

I'm not sure if you're seriously suggesting this, but here, I'll take a stab at it: Cycling involves wheels and gear ratios. Technically, for calories in / distance out, driving or flying or such is far more effective.

I was obviously talking about human based transportation, not merely human powered transportation. But comparatively, cycling is good too, you just have to bump the distances up considerably. I can cycle ~16 miles in an hour comfortably; i certainly couldn't run 16 miles in an hour.

I said squat, not leg press.

For the record, you just said:

I can also do the "I have strong legs" rant, if someone would like me to.

I ran Cross Country for three years - two of which were before realizing how stupid it was

Running isn't for everyone! I loved cross country for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, the people on the team were all close friends, I made new friends, and we spent half the time running singing Sublime and chatting. Second, I joined the team my senior year and was the third place runner. Blahblah, other reasons.

To counter, I also played soccer, which I was bored silly with, having been part of youth teams since I was 5, water polo, which was fun but had a steep learning and fitness curve, as well as being detrimental to my health as after two seasons of play I had torn both rotator cuffs, and I swam, which was, hands down, the single most boring activity I've done in my life (Annnnnnd heres the wall... flip... Annnnnd heres the other wall... Flip.... Oh look, Bob's swimming by.... Annnnnd heres the wall... flip... Annnnnd heres the other wall...).

Every cross country workout we had we took a different path, ran with different people, and had different agenda's. Saw new things (weren't bound to a field, or a pool!), had different conversations... I knew which guys from which other schools were running at my level, and because they were the competition they also became friends, as we encouraged one another to run better during races, congratulated one another after. It was just generally a better vibe then any other sport I've participated in.

[Patrick Donnelly]

I think it was the fact that we could talk that made the XC so boring. Not that the conversation was boring - it was that the pace of the runs were boring. Hard work works best.

A calorie is a unit of energy, any energy - not just that found in food. In a car, only 15% of the energy of the gas that goes in your tank does anything useful. (Source.) Cycling only looses 1% of it's energy to heat. (Source. - Note: The human body itself, however, looses lots of energy to heat, but that's something that's unavoidable and would happen anyway, unless you're dead. Any energy you put into cycling only has a 1% loss.) I don't see how that makes driving more efficient than cycling.

Because your ability to move other things is often dependent on your size, and you can be quite large and strong, and in quite bad shape.

You're ability to move yourself is also dependent on your size, and you can be quite scrawny with lots of endurance, yet be in terrible shape. Take, for example, me, about three years ago. Life involves many things - if you want to be fit for the challenges of life, you've got to be able to do it all.

Anyway...

When you run with a heel-toe strike, each time you hit the ground, you hear a slam. Sound is a side effect of a collision in a real-world scenario. It is kinetic energy transferred from the colliding objects, to air molecules, to our ear drums which perceive it. The volume of the sound is dependent on the amount of energy lost in the collision, which is proportional to the forces of the collision and dependent on the the two materials colliding. In the case of running, the materials are constant in each step (essentially - the ground varies slightly). However, the loud "thudding" sound with each step suggests that there's a very strong collision going on. If you run on grass, you hear more quiet sounds, suggesting a less powerful collision.

Rather than take my time to explain why that powerful collision cannot be properly absorbed while heel-toe running, I'll simply supplement my post with this link:
http://patrickhdonnelly.blogspot.com/20 ... nning.html

When running, your steps should be nearly silent.


Goodnight.

[Izawwlgood]

Hard work works best.

The hardest workout I've ever had was keeping pace with the two guys ahead of me on the team, for a full practice Indian run. No other workout, soccer, swimming, water polo, wrestling, grappling, climbing, even cycling, has left me so utterly drained and exhausted. But that's anecdotal.

I don't see how that makes driving more efficient than cycling.

Oh geez. I posted about jogging. You posted about jogging being a stupid means for fitness and that cycling was better. Implying that you could use utilities. You never mentioned calories, but still, if I put my foot on a gas pedal in a car, I have expended far less effort and gone far further. If you want to talk about pure efficiency of energy in / resultant motion out, then obviously cycling is better, it has wheels. I'm not talking about that. The title of this thread is Marathon, because, as I posted at the beginning, I am training for a marathon. I'm open to discussing anything here (hell, this isn't my forum!), but I'm not sure why you insist on derailing a conversation about running by talking about how cycling is better.

You're ability to move yourself is also dependent on your size, and you can be quite scrawny with lots of endurance, yet be in terrible shape. Take, for example, me, about three years ago. Life involves many things - if you want to be fit for the challenges of life, you've got to be able to do it all.

If you look at marathon runners, they are spindly, but not scrawny. They have fairly muscular legs and calves and wide chests. They are ropey. I don't think it's really possible to be in 'terrible shape' and be an excellent runner. Cardiovascular fitness, which is largely required for running, is a form of fitness.

But yes, I'll agree, there are other forms of fitness. Certainly the strong man competitions (see Klonz's thread) is a measure of fitness, as is rock climbers, soccer players, pole vaulters... This stuff isn't entirely interchangeable though. Again, this thread is about long distance running. I seriously doubt a defensive lineman could run a marathon. I seriously doubt a marathon runner would make a good water polo player. Do you see where I'm going with this?

When you run with a heel-toe strike, each time you hit the ground, you hear a slam.

When running, your steps should be nearly silent.

Yes, and? Emphasis on nearly. If you want to plug proper running technique, I'm not disagreeing with you! You watch olympic sprinters? Only their toes touch, and even then only to kiss the ground. They fly.
I find that to maintain proper running stance/pace/rhythm, I have to occasionally correct myself and stand high, lean slightly forward, and keep my strides the same length (as they have a tendency to shrink when I tire). I also find that to avoid the rut of 'jogging' instead of 'running', it is important to 'pull' your stride backward, so you don't strike the pavement leg fully extended, but instead, leg beginning the power stroke.

But I suggest you reread my original post, as that comment was not pertaining to the wonderous sound of my improper running technique, but the metronomes the body creates while running.

[Wittyname]

4) In the Gods Must be Crazy II, one of the bushmen points at the horizon and goes "I will go speak to our neighbors, if I run all day and all night, I'll be there by morning" and turns point and jogs off towards the distance. In 10,000 B.C., one of the tribesmen points at the horizon and goes "We must speak with the people who live over there." and they run for the horizon. There was a time when our nomadic lifestyles resulted in marathons worth of distance being traversed daily, all as part of the commute. I dig it.

This is why athletes from African countries always beat us at long distance. Because they still do this.

It seems incredible, really.

[Patrick Donnelly]

I'm going to stop posting in this thread and making a fool of myself. Trying to argue on the internet. F'ing biggest waste of time to ever plague mankind.

[justaman]

I have never run in any competitive long distance, but I do (well did, damn injuries - they are better though so I should get back into it) run half marathon distances for fun on a reasonably regular basis and love it. I have been trying to run almost silently for quite some time now and it seems to be a mix of the Indian running (a la Patrick Donnelly) and Izzawwllgood's stride adjustment thing from his last post. It takes a bit of thinking about while running, but has helped ease some of my injury and gives me something extra to focus on while out there in the hills

My best tip is to run some hills frequently, it has really helped my breathing and overall leg strength. I have learned to run up them using my quads as the primary driving force rather than calves, so I am nearly twice as fast as I used to be over a 700m (altitude) climb spaced over 6.5 km.

[Izawwlgood]

Try running backwards. That seems to help strengthen some of the muscles involved, and forces you to lengthen your stride without jumping up and down.

Hills are great though, and as my city is nearly devoid of them, almost always a 'Whoa, what the fuck is this!' feature when I come to them.

[Izawwlgood]

Sorry for the double post, but, Marathons tomorrow, so a quick update:

My right knees a bit amuck but should be okay. My 18mile run went fine with a finish of about 2:30, give or take that weird guy on the bike paths crazy watch. Soo.... Marathon. Hopefully I'll break 4!

Encouraging things, NOW!

[Quadropus]

But yeah, Pheidippides, the runner who purportedly did it first, purportedly died when he delivered his message. Whether or not that's true, the awesomeness of some royal up and ups to say "Hmm, we need an event in between the longer sprint and the wrestling... I know!" is tantamount.

The thing about Pheidippides is not true. Granted, he did run the 26 miles, but did not die at the end. After all, it was common for Greek messengers to run twice as far.
This version of the story appears in the Roman historian Plutarch (c. AD 45-125). In this version the runner was called Eucles. And somewhere along the line, the two stories got crossed over with the older story of Pheidippides, recorded by Herodotus, who was born 6 years after the battle.
According to him, Pheidippides ran from Marathon to Sparta (which is 153 miles) to ask for help against the Persians.

</rant copied from The book of general ignorance>

But back on topic, there is more hardcore running than marathons, ultra running for example, they can range from anything over the 26 miles of a marathon, to 1000 miles.

Pretty damn hardcore no?


And I have been interested in the idea of long distance running, any advice on how to start properly would be appreciated.

[the_bandersnatch]

I'm doing the New York marathon in just under 3 weeks' time now and have been following a training schedule I found on Runner's World ( Marathon Training Section ). I've been doing the 14 week schedule designed to complete the marathon in 3.5 hours or under.

On the whole I've found the training to be about right for me, though yesterday's 20-mile training run really hurt my right knee, so I'm taking today off to rest it. Major physiological changes I've noticed with my body is that though my weight has stayed about the same, my legs have bulked up considerably, I'm hungry every 2 hours now (I used to eat very little, now I can't stop!), and I'm thirsty a hell of a lot more too. Other changes include my much decreased tolerance to the cold - being from Northern England I was naturally cold-resistant but now sit wearing my jacket at work often; a workmate of mine reckons it's down to the fact I've lost most of my body fat therefore have no insulation.

As for where to start with long distance running, I only started running a few years ago, working my way from doing 10 minutes on the treadmill at the gym to doing 5km runs, then increasing gradually from there. The Runner's World link above is an excellent place to start.

[Izawwlgood]

I finished in 4:34, which was not up to snuff for my goal. Oh well. Next year.

My IT band on my right knee has been wrapped in red hot barbed wire and vibrating at the frequency of ouch since mile 20 yesterday.

I totally echo your sentiments bandersnatch. Lost a ton of weight, my legs are much stronger, can't get enough food (but have a weaker stomach then previously, really fatty or sugary foods upset my stomach in ways they never used to). Punched a new hole in my belt.

Good luck in 3 wks bandersnatch! Maybe you'll get more support here then I did /nudgenudgeforumites!

[Jebobek]

Better luck next year! I have plantar fasceitus so I hope you don't think lesser of me when I say I run on a treadmill at random speeds for only like 25 minutes per day.

[duckshirt]

Awww, I was at the Chicago Marathon, watching a few people I know... if only I checked these forums more often, maybe I could've cheered for you with an xkcd-themed poster.

[Izawwlgood]

A complex formula correlating drive, distance traveled, efficiency of caloric expenditure, reward and pain would have been grand.

Anyone out there quality for Boston, or running NY soon?

[jbn]

I used to go running but had a hard time sustaining it when I became more busy. I should try and locate a nice route near my home and try to hit that before school or when I get home from school on a regular basis. Running is a really neat form of exercise because it's easy to push yourself until you're genuinely exhausted.

Really should pick it up again.

On the topic however, I've never had an interest in trying a Marathon though I understand it's motivation as a test of a honed body and running skills. I am however interested in trying parkour and that would be more motivation for me.

[Izawwlgood]

I don't think parkour is generally considered to be demonstrative of endurance. The long run from James Bond that seems to have popularized it for a lot of people is the longest single sequence I've seen, and wasn't a single camera pan.

Parkour is more urban gymnastics.

As for your general fitness observation, I'd suggest not 'pushing' yourself to the point of exhaustion but working that point of 'near exhaustion' further and further along with training.

[jbn]

From my experience and with some limited reading on parkour I'd say the traceurs generally do quite a bit of running and have quite a bit of endurance. From what I've tried to do myself I feel that I'd prefer some more endurance. In the end I'm betting it depends on what kind of things you do in your "runs". The gymnastics are obviously an important part.

[Izawwlgood]

I only mean to say that you can run a complex sequence and be winded and... take a break. The point of running long distance is not to take a break. Although! Clicky!

I didn't compete as I didn't find out about it until sunday, but MAN how cool does that sound?