The radical idea that women are people

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The radical idea that women are people

Postby pkuky » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:40 pm UTC

argh. I hate sexism. I got into a fight with a girl today, she was the one who attacked me, goddamn it, and I'm the one who got suspended. crazy bitch. they even admitted it was because I'm male.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby ClassholeInTraining » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:25 pm UTC

I hate feminists.I'll admit when it comes to equal rights and stuff I'm fine, but when it get's to the "every womans a Godess" or " a guy telling a rude joke to someone near you counts as sexual harrasment" shit I just want to break that womans neck.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Teapot » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:30 pm UTC

ClassholeInTraining wrote:I hate feminists.I'll admit when it comes to equal rights and stuff I'm fine, but when it get's to the "every womans a Godess" or " a guy telling a rude joke to someone near you counts as sexual harrasment" shit I just want to break that womans neck.

Feminists are people who want equal rights. What you are describing is not feminism. *Is holding back rage*
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Felstaff » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:33 pm UTC

pkuky wrote:argh. I hate sexism. I got into a fight with a girl today, she was the one who attacked me, goddamn it, and I'm the one who got suspended. crazy bitch. they even admitted it was because I'm male.
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ClassholeInTraining wrote:I hate feminists.I'll admit when it comes to equal rights and stuff I'm fine, but when it get's to the "every womans a Godess" or " a guy telling a rude joke to someone near you counts as sexual harrasment" shit I just want to break that womans neck.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby KingLoser » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:36 pm UTC

First rule of fight club is: Don't ever complain about feminism on the xkcd fora...
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby pkuky » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:39 pm UTC

he's right, it can get ridiculous. I mean, woman couldn't manage to get into the firefighters because the physical requirements were too harsh and woman couldn't manage to pass the tests. so they were forced to make easier tests for woman so that they could manage to become firefighters. that's stupid. firefighting isn't about giving people a treat, it's about putting out fires.
of course, wherever chauvinism helps woman it's still in place. woman are conscripted for a year less, and they're allowed to do civil service instead if they want to.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Lolsaur » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:46 pm UTC

ClassholeInTraining wrote:I hate feminists.I'll admit when it comes to equal rights and stuff I'm fine, but when it get's to the "every womans a Godess" or " a guy telling a rude joke to someone near you counts as sexual harrasment" shit I just want to break that womans neck.


Please see the attached URL on feminism.

As Teapot said, what you're describing is not feminism, I'd say it is more sexism on the part of the women believing that they are better than men.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby pkuky » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:49 pm UTC

and I don't like feminism because over here, it's usually just an excuse for sexism. also, because feminists often get way too aggressive about it. it's like pro lifers who go around covered in blood.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:57 pm UTC

... again, that's not feminism. A pile of shit can call itself a delicious pie, but that doesn't make it true.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Noc » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:00 pm UTC

So, who wants to take this one?
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:01 pm UTC

I'm waiting for Quix's head to a splode.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Felstaff » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:02 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:... again, that's not feminism. A pile of shit can call itself a delicious pie, but that doesn't make it true.

This is just an underhanded way of telling me my delicious pie making skills are not up to your standard.

You could have at least just spread it over your plate a little.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:03 pm UTC

..the crust was nice...
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:06 pm UTC

Noc wrote:So, who wants to take this one?


I want confessions in this thread. I'd be happy to have the discussion in the feminism thread.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Lolsaur » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:08 pm UTC

answers.com wrote:Feminism: Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.


Now, by someone saying that women should have easier tests or that they deserve more than men, this is not meeting the definition of feminism.

What the majority of you are describing is not feminism, it is sexism or something of that ilk, as has been said before.

Live with it.

Imma stop now, before people get really pissed off.




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Last edited by Lolsaur on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby pkuky » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:11 pm UTC

I meant that a lot of things call themselves feminism and are really sexism. will you please read what I'm writing instead of picking at the words.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Noc » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:14 pm UTC

We're not "picking at the words," we're saying you're wrong. Still,
bigglesworth wrote:I want confessions in this thread. I'd be happy to have the discussion in the feminism thread.
Someone want to move all of this budding argument someplace more suitable?
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby KingLoser » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:15 pm UTC

Noc wrote:Someone want to move all of this budding argument someplace more suitable?

Outside?

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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Gojoe » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:24 pm UTC

I agree that quix's head is going to explode when she sees this...
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby pkuky » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:28 pm UTC

Noc wrote:We're not "picking at the words," we're saying you're wrong. Still,
bigglesworth wrote:I want confessions in this thread. I'd be happy to have the discussion in the feminism thread.
Someone want to move all of this budding argument someplace more suitable?

you'e saying I'm wrong while talking about things I didn't actually say. you're saying "that's sexism, not feminism", as if you were correcting me, while if you read what I wrote you'd notice I said "it's sexism hiding behind the name of feminism", which means that I don't think it's feminism, but those who do it do. and the problem with feminism is the same problem there is with every other idiological issue, which is that people get too emotional and angry and aggressive about it. I mean, even if I agree with the pro-lifers' opinions, I still don't like it when they go around covered in blood. same goes for feminism.
the other problem with feminism is that I've never heard a feminist battle against laws that favour women over men, such as the one that requires a minimum of X woman on the ministry.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby Felstaff » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:42 pm UTC

I'll pick this one apart.
ClassholeInTraining wrote:I hate feminists.
Is that an absolute? Because you wouldn't want to hate my mother. She has knives for elbows. Be careful how you word these things.
ClassholeInTraining wrote:I'll admit when it comes to equal rights and stuff I'm fine,
Naturally
ClassholeInTraining wrote:but when it get's to the "every womans a Godess"
Not a facet of feminism. Or reality, it turns out.
ClassholeInTraining wrote:or " a guy telling a rude joke to someone near you counts as sexual harrasment" shit
Again, not feminism. Just douchebaggery and insensitivity. It counts as sexual harassment if the joke contains a level of sexuality and malice in tone that is determined by those within earshot as inappropriate. I could make a joke about how I shot your sister in the face, but that would be malicious because your sister was once shot in the face. It would make it inappropriate if I made it your sister's funeral. So, application of context is everything; and yes, making a joke about your hot co-workers tits is sexual harassment if she feels she is being harassed, insulted, or upset by it.



...
ClassholeInTraining wrote:I just want to break that womans neck.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Noc » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:48 pm UTC

Right, we good? We're good.

Here's the thing about Feminism. It requires something of a leap of intuition to understand. It's a pretty small leap, honestly, but it's a leap nonetheless. However, it's a leap that many, many people have not made. It's sort of like Math; you can have people explaining things to you for years, and your eyes just end up glazing over, but then eventually something clicks and you get it and know exactly what's going on.

Consequentially, we get people like yourself, Pkuky, who effectively have a blindspot in regard to social dynamics. You simply don't "get it." Now, feminists have spent hours and hours and hours trying to explain feminism to people like yourself, with little success, and tend to get annoyed at the whole process after a while. As I am. The result of this is the fact that people like yourself regularly have feminists yelling at them over something they've done that they can't see the problem with; to them, it's some unknowable arcane offense that's being held against them by angry women. This gives rise to, well, all of the things you've said so far. The idea that feminism isn't a legitimate facet of social analysis, and is rather simply an avenue for anti-male sexism.

This is an uninformed position, born from a lack of understanding of what, exactly, you're talking about. Once you realize this, you'll be in a much better place; you'll be trying to learn math, instead of maintaining that your math teachers do nothing but spout bullshit to make you feel stupid.

Other people will pick apart everything you've said so far, and hopefully help you realize why the vast bulk of it is absolutely bullshit, because they're better qualified to do it than I am and will probably do a better job. But seriously.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:50 pm UTC

pkuky wrote:the other problem with feminism is that I've never heard a feminist battle against laws that favour women over men, such as the one that requires a minimum of X woman on the ministry.
While I agree that it's not the most elegant solution, without such a law the problem will never resolve itself. Society will continue to believe that only men are capable of holding X position, and all observational evidence will back up the notion that only men are capable of holding X position as only men have ever held X position, and you basically end up with the idea that no woman has ever held X position because they aren't capable of holding X position because if they were, there'd be a woman in X position, so there not being one is evidence that they are incapable of it...... you see the circular logic here?

Also, you're seriously going to bitch about a law that mandates that an oppressed group gets a bone now and again because it somehow treats those in power badly?

I mean.. what advantage has a man ever had over a woman in society anyway? Ever? Even today?

Also, what Noc said.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Azrael001 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:55 pm UTC

I guess what people are trying to say is that feminism = belief in gender equality. No more no less.

All of the other stuff that you don't like is stuff that everyone else doesn't like either. It's separate.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Red Hal » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:57 pm UTC

Agreed. I like feminism. I don't even think it should be called feminism, it should just be a part of equality in general. It irks me - from a historical basis - that it was even required.

I look forward to a post-feminist, post-racist, post-sectarian world where these words do not need to be used because everyone understands and believes right down in their core that all human beings should be treated on their own individual merits.

However,

(deep breath)

There are some feminists that I detest. For example, Marilyn French. Even allowing for context, I cannot forgive her for her statement that "All men are rapists". That is the kind of inflammatory over-generalisation that did nothing for equality. Feel free to call me out on that, because I want to get over it, but I just find myself getting more bitter about it as the years roll by.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Gunfingers » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:03 pm UTC

Which makes it a dumb name, etymologically speaking. According to the name it's all about women. You'd think the pursuit of equal rights between genders would be "Equal gender-ism" or something. I hate words, words are stupid. How's that invention where everyone communicates directly by thought coming along?
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Felstaff » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:08 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:How's that invention where everyone communicates directly by thought coming along?

You mean... the internet?

In other news: my telekinetiphone is coming along fine. Just think me what you think.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Monty40xi » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:39 pm UTC

Here's how I see things.

Misogyny: the belief that women are categorically inferior as people, undeserving, evil, etc.
Feminism: the belief that misogyny is a bunch of crap.
Misandry: the belief that the only reason misogyny is crap is because it just got the genders reversed.
Sexism: anything where your treatment, good or bad, is influenced by your gender.

The "feminists" who tend to piss us off are either misandrists who hate us for what we are, or sexists who want social standards to favor them. I don't think anybody here hates the non-sexist, non-misandrist feminists who expect to wait in line, pay for their own dinners, and get promoted based on how well they do their job.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sje46 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:50 pm UTC

Here's how I see things.

Misogyny: the hatred of women.
Feminism: the belief that women should be treated equal to men.
Misandry: Hatred of men;
Sexism: The belief that one gender is inherently superior to others.

Notice that none of these are acts. They are all either feelings or beliefs. Racism is not an act either.
As far as I'm aware, these are the actual definintions.
The "feminists" who tend to piss us off are either misandrists who hate us for what we are, or sexists who want social standards to favor them. I don't think anybody here hates the non-sexist, non-misandrist feminists who expect to wait in line, pay for their own dinners, and get promoted based on how well they do their job.

I hate that too. This seems to be the common perception of feminists. A real feminist is someone who wants equality, not inequality in favor of women.
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:51 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
pkuky wrote:the other problem with feminism is that I've never heard a feminist battle against laws that favour women over men, such as the one that requires a minimum of X woman on the ministry.
While I agree that it's not the most elegant solution, without such a law the problem will never resolve itself.


Did Britain require a law to require some MPs to be female for there to be female MPs, and even a PM?
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Re: Post yo' fess - Sponsored by the NBA

Postby pkuky » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:02 pm UTC

Noc wrote:We're not "picking at the words," we're saying you're wrong.

this is the problem. you're not reading what I'm writing: all you see is someone writing "feminism is bad" and think "wow, that guy needs to be taught a lesson.
Noc wrote:Right, we good? We're good.

Here's the thing about Feminism. It requires something of a leap of intuition to understand. It's a pretty small leap, honestly, but it's a leap nonetheless. However, it's a leap that many, many people have not made. It's sort of like Math; you can have people explaining things to you for years, and your eyes just end up glazing over, but then eventually something clicks and you get it and know exactly what's going on.

Consequentially, we get people like yourself, Pkuky, who effectively have a blindspot in regard to social dynamics. You simply don't "get it." Now, feminists have spent hours and hours and hours trying to explain feminism to people like yourself, with little success, and tend to get annoyed at the whole process after a while. As I am. The result of this is the fact that people like yourself regularly have feminists yelling at them over something they've done that they can't see the problem with; to them, it's some unknowable arcane offense that's being held against them by angry women. This gives rise to, well, all of the things you've said so far. The idea that feminism isn't a legitimate facet of social analysis, and is rather simply an avenue for anti-male sexism.

This is an uninformed position, born from a lack of understanding of what, exactly, you're talking about. Once you realize this, you'll be in a much better place; you'll be trying to learn math, instead of maintaining that your math teachers do nothing but spout bullshit to make you feel stupid.

Other people will pick apart everything you've said so far, and hopefully help you realize why the vast bulk of it is absolutely bullshit, because they're better qualified to do it than I am and will probably do a better job. But seriously.


what you're saying here is that I hate feminism because it seems to me a bunch of crap. this is not true. I have spoken with various rational feminists who do believe in rationally talking things out, and I fully support them. but some examples, such as the one with the firefighters and various others go too far. I'm not saying all feminism is crap, just that sometimes people do things in the name of feminism that are blatant sexism. I should note here that that sort of feminism is stronger in this country then in any other country in the world, so I can see why your inexpirience with it might have led you to wrong conclusions.

Also, you're seriously going to bitch about a law that mandates that an oppressed group gets a bone now and again because it somehow treats those in power badly?

yes. I have a problem with that kind of treatment, because as quix once said, "that's not feminism, that's just the patriachy being benign". I don't like that sort of thing in general. it's like when minorities who've suffered poor education have trouble getting into college because of it: the solution isn't to accept people who are less capable because of past discrimination, it's to start building them a better basic education. if woman get mandates they didn't earn, what you'll get is that you get in woman who are less capable, and that just harms feminism because then woman in public positions appear incompetent.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Plasma Man » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:05 pm UTC

Interesting stuff. I've thought of myself as being a feminist for quite a while now, but if wikipedia is correct, I now know that I am - and probably a libertarian feminist at that. This isn't the place for a discussion of different kinds of feminism (I think), so I'll just go for the main definition as "belief of the political, social, and economic equality of men and women". This is a good set of goals; I don't think any society is there yet, but some are on their way. I think that the U.K. is pretty good regarding legal recognition of women's social equality, but there is still gender stereotyping in effect that may discourage or disadvantage women who want to take on some social roles.

Personally, I think that the economic side is more about equality of opportunity than of results. My example would be a job that requires a lot of physical strength. I don't see that it's anti-feminist to say that in general men are stronger than women and are more likely to be suited to this job, as long as it is remembered that it's just a general rule and if a woman is strong enough to do the job she should be given an equal opportunity for it. Likewise, if it's a job in an area where women generally have an advantage (safer drivers for example), they would be more likely to be suited to the job, but any man who shows they can meet the requirements should have an equal opportunity for it.

I think what I'm trying to say is equality of opportunity doesn't necessarily mean equal employment of men and women in all occupations, but it does mean that whoever applies for a job is assessed honestly to find out if they're the best candidate for the job.

Politically, votes count equally, so that's a point for equality. Women do seem to be under-represented as politicians, possibly due to gender prejudice or social expectations / pressure, but I don't think most voters would see the gender of their prospective M.P. as being an issue. Personally, I always like to see Diane Abbott or Shami Chakrabarti when they pop up on political / news programmes as they normally have something interesting to say.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby pkuky » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:12 pm UTC

I think one reason women are less represented and so forth is that they have less testosterone or whatever, so they tend to be less aggressive and ambitious. at any rate, I think it's the reason society got to be male dominated in the first place-that men are naturally more dominatitive (see above comment on manual labor/driving). however, I do fully agree that woman should be given equal oppurtunity and so forth. and it's not a pronounced enough trend to judge anyone by.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby natraj » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:15 pm UTC

pkuky wrote:I think one reason women are less represented and so forth is that they have less testosterone or whatever, so they tend to be less aggressive and ambitious. at any rate, I think it's the reason society got to be male dominated in the first place-that men are naturally more dominatitive (see above comment on manual labor/driving). however, I do fully agree that woman should be given equal oppurtunity and so forth. and it's not a pronounced enough trend to judge anyone by.


... or that women who do have ambition and assert themselves are seen as obnoxious strident unfeminine b*tches because of this attitude that ambition is a Man Thing, where the exact same quality in a male politician would be praised as strength.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sje46 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:24 pm UTC

pkuky wrote:I think one reason women are less represented and so forth is that they have less testosterone or whatever, so they tend to be less aggressive and ambitious. at any rate, I think it's the reason society got to be male dominated in the first place-that men are naturally more dominatitive (see above comment on manual labor/driving). however, I do fully agree that woman should be given equal oppurtunity and so forth. and it's not a pronounced enough trend to judge anyone by.

This is a problem with feminism. Racism is the belief that all races are inherently equal (except physically, of course). Racism is the belief that some races are superior to others (I am not talking about physically--Kenyans are quite fast.). I think most people think this is true. Most people don't think that the Chinese are inherently smarter, or that blacks are inherently better at dancing. Racism is not accepted simply because it isn't true, as far as we can tell.

Sexism is different. Sexism and racism are both beliefs, not actions. If it is an action you are thinking of, call it sex-based discrimination. Now, sexism is the belief that one sex is inherently inferior OR less valuable than the other. Inferior. In what way? Isn't it proven that women are inherently more emotionally connected? That they have higher EQs (I have a very high EQ. It is over 2000. My brain hertz)? And aren't men more driven, more agressive, because of testosterone? Yes, men have more of it, and that causes the difference in sex drive. Well, men and women are inherently inferior to each other in some aspects, but I don't think in total. But is one less valuable? I don't think so. And if one is, does that justify treating them inequally? I don't think either sex is less valuable by the way.
Last edited by sje46 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:50 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:29 pm UTC

Re: racism, please edit your post so that it makes any sort of sense at all in English.
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sje46 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:31 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:Re: racism, please edit your post so that it makes any sort of sense at all in English.

What are you talking about?
My post? What doesn't make sense to you?
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Red Hal » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:32 pm UTC

sje46 wrote: Racism is the belief that all races are inherently equal (except physically, of course).


This.

Perhaps you mean "inequal"?
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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby Azrael001 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:34 pm UTC

This will diverge the topic a bit, but it does bear mentioning.

sje46 wrote:This is a problem with feminism. Racism is the belief that all races are inherently equal (except physically, of course). I think most people think this is true. Most people don't think that the Chinese are inherently smarter, or that blacks are inherently better at dancing. Racism is not accepted simply because it isn't true, as far as we can tell.


Isn't racism the belief that a race is inherrently inferior, rather than equal? Also (ignoring the fact that "black" isn't a race) don't you find it odd that in almost any running event it is a black person that holds the record? What I mean is people have this tendency to try and act like each race doesn't have it's advantages and disadvantages.

Back on topic I think that we need to decide on a definition of feminism for any useful discussion. People seem to be arguing from their own definition, and it causes problems.

I am of the opinion that there are inherrant differences between the sexes, but that each person should be judged on an individual basis, as there are those who break the mold.

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Re: Feminism (split from 'nfessions)

Postby sje46 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:41 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:
sje46 wrote: Racism is the belief that all races are inherently equal (except physically, of course).


This.

Perhaps you mean "inequal"?

Oh. Yeah. That is what I meant. I'll fix it.
Azrael001 wrote:This will diverge the topic a bit, but it does bear mentioning.

sje46 wrote:This is a problem with feminism. Racism is the belief that all races are inherently equal (except physically, of course). I think most people think this is true. Most people don't think that the Chinese are inherently smarter, or that blacks are inherently better at dancing. Racism is not accepted simply because it isn't true, as far as we can tell.


Isn't racism the belief that a race is inherrently inferior, rather than equal?

That is what I meant.
Also (ignoring the fact that "black" isn't a race) don't you find it odd that in almost any running event it is a black person that holds the record? What I mean is people have this tendency to try and act like each race doesn't have it's advantages and disadvantages.

Look at the bold.
I'm not sure that in a nonphysical point of view that there is a difference. There could be though *shrug*.
Back on topic I think that we need to decide on a definition of feminism for any useful discussion. People seem to be arguing from their own definition, and it causes problems.

I was comparing the two. Sexism and racism. There is an inherent problem between the too because sexism does have inherent non-physical differences. So I think I was on topic .. ..
Feminism=belief that men and women should be treated equally.
I am of the opinion that there are inherrant differences between the sexes, but that each person should be judged on an individual basis, as there are those who break the mold.

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I agree. We should discriminate or even stereotype based off gender.
WE SHOULD NOT.
I AM SO DUMB. STUPID TYPOS
Last edited by sje46 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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