A Song of Ice and Fire

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mosc
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A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby mosc » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:27 pm UTC

No George R.R. Martin thread? Any fans out there for A Song of Ice and Fire?

I'm currently racing through A Storm of Swords (the third book) and already dreading when I get to the end of the 4th book and the rest are years away from being finished :(

Tyrion is a particularly well written character.

anyway, wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby spi » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:02 pm UTC

I tore through everything up until A Feast For Crows. Which I have read a few hundred pages of but haven't gotten any farther. Maybe it is because all of the characters I really like are not in this book. Not sure what it is but the book hasn't grabbed me yet. Maybe the next time I am looking for a nice long read over vacation I will pack it with me.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby VannA » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:57 am UTC

I love this series.

It is brilliantly written.. I just want to read the rest of it.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:56 pm UTC

Loved these books, read to the fourth after tearing through the others and felt that it just started flagging. I found myself more interested in the characters that were written about the least, Ayra, Bram, Jon Snow, the Dragon princess (who's name eludes me), and the eldest Stark girl (who's name also eludes me). Everyone else's storylines just felt like more of the same, more of the snivelling and scheming, and I got bored witless hearing the gripes and euphamisms and metaphors to describe what had happened. Martin started getting weak in his storytelling.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby MordorIsBad » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:41 pm UTC

Read it, loved it.
Agree on the fourth book being less fun than the others, though I just tore through it anyway.
According to GRRM this was because he was originally planning to publish one BIG fourth book, but it turned it was too big, so therefore he separated all the characters by location.
People in Kings Landing and the south in A Feast for Crows, everyone else in A Dance with Dragons. Regrettably, all the cool characters had fled Kings Landing and the south at that time. Which made it such a harrowing book, but which will hopefully make A Dance with Dragons an excellent read!
I'm at least looking forward to it with childish glee at the moment.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby xenuphobia » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:34 pm UTC

I'm somewhere between a third of the way and half way through the second book. It's pretty interesting so far, but I think the series was built up too much for me before I started reading them. I do like the fact that GRRM isn't afraid to kill off his characters and have terrible, terrible things happen to them, though. Too many modern fantasy characters are invincible, IMO.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby parkaboy » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:57 pm UTC

aww i came in here all "ROBERT FROST ROBERT FROST!!!" but alas. i shall have to investigate this other business and get back to you.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby btilly » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:03 am UTC

Read it, loved it, waiting for book 5.

About the 4th book, it suffered for two reasons. The first is that half of it is missing - he had too many points of view going for one book so he only gave half of them in that book. The second reason is that there had to be a rebuilding period after the action in the third book. So there is naturally less going on.

Hopefully he keeps the scope of the series under control and fulfills the promise that is visible already.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby creamsoda2090 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:22 am UTC

btilly wrote:Read it, loved it, waiting for book 5.

About the 4th book, it suffered for two reasons. The first is that half of it is missing - he had too many points of view going for one book so he only gave half of them in that book. The second reason is that there had to be a rebuilding period after the action in the third book. So there is naturally less going on.

Hopefully he keeps the scope of the series under control and fulfills the promise that is visible already.


Completely agree here. Also, if I recall correctly, the number of cliffhangers in the fourth book begins to border on absurd. Littlefinger might be my favorite villain ever, tied with the shrike in the Hyperion quartet.

Also:
Spoiler:
What Littlefinger does to Ned at the end of book one isn't necessarily mind boggling in the sense that it can't be conceived, but it came as a real shock to me. I hadn't read any other Martin and I can't think of anything I've read where the main protagonist dies before the end of the book. It made me realize this series was something special.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Prole » Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:03 pm UTC

I loved all the books till 4

That one was a slog. What was he thinking?

Spoiler:
"oh i'll just LEAVE OUT tyrion, jon and daeynerys (however you spell that) and concentrate on one part of the world with relatively boring characters and leave jaime pottering around with no arm."

\end rant


5 should be great though, i'll have to re-read the others before it comes out
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Arsin » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:08 pm UTC

Weirdest thing. The first time I read A Feast For Crows, I just couldn't do it. It didn't interest me at all. Then I came back to it later and devoured the whole thing. Now it's my favorite book, and I'm finding myself less interested in the main characters than before (except Tyrion). I can definitely understand not liking it, though. Totally excited for the fifth regardless.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Vellyr » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:53 am UTC

This series is awesome, not much to say about it though because GRRM is a slow ass-writer. I heard they're making an HBO adaptation, so I might have to get cable just to see that.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Notch » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:28 am UTC

God I love A Song of Ice and Fire. It's so unpredictable without going into surrealism, and [most of] the characters are made of pure win!

Warning, MASSIVE spoilers:
Spoiler:
Since Jon Snow probably is a Targaryen, he's almost certainly the Ice to Daenerys's Fire, what with the Targaryen's tradition of incestuous marriage and so.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby davej » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:35 pm UTC

I am the same way with the fourth book as many of you are. I read maybe 230 pages in and got bored. I let my mom borrow it and she read the whole thing, but now after I finish this term, and during my winterbreak, I plan on finishing it up. Most of the characters do not interest me in this book, so I do look forward to the 5th a lot.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby spi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:57 pm UTC

davej wrote:I am the same way with the fourth book as many of you are. I read maybe 230 pages in and got bored. I let my mom borrow it and she read the whole thing, but now after I finish this term, and during my winterbreak, I plan on finishing it up. Most of the characters do not interest me in this book, so I do look forward to the 5th a lot.


Hmm I will have to bring it back to my parents house over Christmas and give it a good read. I will probably have more luck trying to read it there. Less distracted by computers.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Benedict » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:52 am UTC

spi wrote:I tore through everything up until A Feast For Crows. Which I have read a few hundred pages of but haven't gotten any farther. Maybe it is because all of the characters I really like are not in this book. Not sure what it is but the book hasn't grabbed me yet. Maybe the next time I am looking for a nice long read over vacation I will pack it with me.

What the hell? Exact same thing happened to me. I've been on page 112 for about four months (apparently, this is a common occurrence), distracted by Colbert's book and, currently, Night Watch, by Sergei Lukyanenko. I keep saying, "Oh, right, AFFC, I guess I'll finish reading that... sometime."
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby senmoonsect » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:01 am UTC

I liked the most recent one. I liked Jaime a lot and Sansa is a boring character but the stuff around her was interesting. The Dorn stuff was interesting too. I'm excited to find out what happens to Bran and Daenyris (or however its spelled) and a host of other characters, but Jaime and Sansa are two of my favorites still. And of course the stuff across the wall is interesting (but it seemed a little juvenile to me or something, I don't know).

Regardless, this is probably my favorite living series at the moment.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:14 am UTC

I read the first two, I need to pick up the rest, the first two were amazing books.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:27 am UTC

To me at least, it seems like there's three unrelated stories going on. There's the Wall and the stuff in the north - straight up Fantasy with maybe a little horror thrown in... Unstoppable creatures, ancient lore used to find the weapons that harm them, dead rising.. that sort of thing.

Then there's the slave queen of the plains, slowly gaining a huge army and a massive following while getting emotionally harder as more things she holds dear are stripped from her.

And then there's the rebellion against the crown.

Three stories that could pretty much stand on their own that happen to be going on in the same world.. which means, frankly, that at some point all three are going to slam together in a horrible trainwreck of death and destruction... probably as the rebellion war starts to wind down and the whole kingdom is fragmented back into Seven (or more), the Wall will break and the slave armies will land.

The thought of all of that makes me giddy.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby niende » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:23 am UTC

The way I see it:

Daenerys will come rolling over the country and then beat off the others. while killing off every other major character that has yet to die. then we shall all live in joy and happiness under the rule of her cuddly dragons. The end.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby thejdawg » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:40 pm UTC

niende wrote:The way I see it:

Daenerys will come rolling over the country and then beat off the others.

I think I read this wrong the first time.

Spoiler:
Though I do agree that she is going to be the eventual winner of Westeros.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby davej » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:55 pm UTC

Loved the first 3. Still have to get back to reading the 4th book though. Stopped 200 pages in and gave it to my mom to read. She didn't like it as much either. Anyways.. http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117957532.html?categoryid=14&cs=1. This series is coming to HBO!

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:54 pm UTC

is anybody else of the opinion that all four books are simply exposition? He seems to like to write only back story and discussion and not the action. Very little of any of the books is events. This seems to be the same on an individual chapter basis as well. 90% of the chapter is kind of meandering and foreshadowing and then the actual moment at the end of the chapter is more summarized than described.

I get the feeling that this will continue till like the last 10% of the 7th book where he will briefly summarize the roles the remaining characters have in the more global event he's been preparing us for. I love his world and his characters but he's teasing me too much by not telling me the story that is progressing!

7 books of 1000 pages each which would have been just as good in 1/10th the volume. Maybe better.

Still, I can't get enough of it. I'm almost finished with the 4th book and I'll probably re-read them all.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby nonorganon » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:51 pm UTC

mosc wrote: I love his world and his characters but he's teasing me too much by not telling me the story that is progressing!

7 books of 1000 pages each which would have been just as good in 1/10th the volume. Maybe better.

Still, I can't get enough of it. I'm almost finished with the 4th book and I'll probably re-read them all.


Sounds more like you're talking more Tolkien than GRRM. The action is the politics that culminates into the "action".

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:25 am UTC

Newbie who didn't post in the intro thread's got a point. That is the action. The whole thing is politics.. consolidating power, and all that jazz. The only Bow Piff Zap action is on the Wall, and that's all politics too.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Midnight » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:45 am UTC

people who are complaining about 4... did you read his addendum? admittedly, he should've waited and released both (simultaniously) as a 2-part thing. Everyone would've loved his 'brash move' or whatever critics would call it.
but the fact is, this just means 5=all the great characters that I love!


Also, Eddard Stark was and still is my favorite character.
Spoiler:
which is a bit of an issue, cause of the whole.. dead... thing. But honestly, he was like, the coolest. Should've been king and all that. Honestly the best choice for just about everything--and a BADASS swordsman to boot!
Do you realize that him and 2 other guys took on Ser Arthur Dayne, sword of the morning--considered the second-best swordsman in history (after aemon the dragonknight), as well as Gerold Hightower, leader of the Kingsguard, the best living swordsmen... and one other (also pretty damn good guy)...
that fight ends up with some of the best swordsmen in living history dead, and only Eddard Stark lives. Why? Cause he's hella awesome.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby scowdich » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:35 am UTC

Yeah, I have to admit Eddard Stark is one of my favorite literary characters (and this took some deliberation).

Also,
Spoiler:
Jon Snow as the son of Rhaegar? Hell yes. Too damn neat not to be true.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Alisto » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:04 am UTC

Love the books. Hate the waiting.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby thejdawg » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:25 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:Also, Eddard Stark was and still is my favorite character.

He is definitely my favorite as well.

My biggest problem with AFfC was that it essentially took the stories of everyone I don't give two shits about, and put them all in one book. While leaving out the characters I found most intriguing out.

Lucky for Martin, his first books were so strong. Because, to me, and to the majority of people who I know who've read it, AFfC is filler. Had the series started with a book of its poor quality, there probably wouldn't have been any more written, because it's simply not that good of a book.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby nonorganon » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:30 am UTC

Eddard Stark exists to show the end of the Stark line of thought. No more 'honor', no more 'justice'. One of GRRM's greatest strengths is in the characterization of the remaining siblings as various forces at work in the world as a whole. The macrocosm in the microcosm.

The most important thing to remember about A Song of Ice and Fire is that it is as far from a heroic fantasy as possible; not in the sense of the cliché antihero as much as a gritty and painful existence for his characters. This stands out the most in the treatment of 'magic'. When was the last time you saw it treated as such a completely alien and terrifying thing?

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:25 am UTC

And it takes cahones to kill off a lovable badass good guy.

Argh, what's the dwarfs name? he was great.

And:

"Her name was (Elana? Eya? Forget)! YOU RAPED HER! YOU KILLED HER! YOU MURDERED HER CHILDREN!"

Whats the necromancer guy up to? Whats Catelyn Starks new mission?
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Vellyr » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:48 am UTC

Whats the necromancer guy up to?


Methinks he's turning the remains of Gregor Clegane into some sort of undead monstrosity

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Midnight » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:47 am UTC

yeah, seconded.

i mean, think about it.

necromancer guy is up to something. Clegane is/was down.

ordering armor so big no man can wear it (except, you know, the mountain that rides--'but he's dead')
crazy cersei having a champion that cannot be killed.
ie undead.
and very, very powerful.


much like zombie clegane.





i think I want sandor to kill gregor, next time around. except sandor is dead too.


and about the man of the golden spyglass and the son of the mad king... that fits so well that i fell off my chair when I read it.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Alisto » Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:31 pm UTC

All this discussion of plot points makes me want to read the series again. But then I'm just going to get more perturbed at A Dance for Dragons not being finished yet.

Conundrum.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Eoin » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:43 pm UTC

scowdich wrote:Also,
Spoiler:
Jon Snow as the son of Rhaegar? Hell yes. Too damn neat not to be true.


I agree with your spoiler. Too many coincidences otherwise.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:32 am UTC

Spoiler:
I don't really see how Jon Snow can be Rhaegar's son, when he's Ned's son to that noble lady, Arianna or something.


Me thinks Arya or Bran are going to return as adults with incredible powers, Bran being a shaman clairvoyant spirit dancer, and Arya being... Whoa, i dunno, it'll be awesome. The last we saw her she was
Spoiler:
training in the ways of the god of many faces, and drank a poisoned milk, waking blind.


The elder stark daughter will hopefully own up into her life and become something new and different.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby thejdawg » Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:50 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:The elder stark daughter will hopefully own up into her life and become something new and different.

Sansa sucks at everything.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Masuri » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:11 am UTC

I got halfway through the second book before I put it down. I hate the thing that people love the most about these books - the unpredictability. Introduce a character. Make me think it's important. Kill it. Oh, the humanity! By the way, here's another character! Rinse, repeat.

I don't like it. It strikes me as a gimmick, kind of bait-and-switch-y. "Ho ho, you'll never figure out what's really of relevance because I keep deliberately misleading you!" That's a fine device, and it works very well - up to a point. If I start to feel like you're just fucking with me, I'll stop caring and move along.

Lots of people love this series. At some point, I will have to pick it back up and try again. It seemed like there was possibly a great story in there somewhere, and that was the most frustrating thing of all.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Alisto » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:42 am UTC

Masuri wrote:I got halfway through the second book before I put it down. I hate the thing that people love the most about these books - the unpredictability. Introduce a character. Make me think it's important. Kill it. Oh, the humanity! By the way, here's another character! Rinse, repeat.


The logic behind that is to show you that no one is safe. If you read other fantasy series, you know who's going to live. There are certain characters who can be put in danger over and over, but you know that they won't actually die. This series takes a far more realistic approach.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:10 pm UTC

well, I finished the 4th book. I did like it and found it similar in quality to the earlier books. I did notice he said "within the year" for #5 and he said that back in June 05 so he's already like 18 months late and running. He seems to get more and more time between each book. We'll be lucky to see #7 before 2025!
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