The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

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Vicarin
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:12 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
By golly this plytho lynch is going to go through if it's the last thing I do. Gotta get that sweet, sweet payback for Chaos :P

Main issue: if somitomi doesn't start posting a fair bit more (he was so good in Chaos), he's totally going to die horribly soon. And then I'll have to keep up this smokescreen at least until there's 3 people left (if there's an Indie I can side with). I think I can POSSIBLY get by with keeping on the good side of BoomFrog, Zen and LaserGuy, mpolo is way too much of a wildcard for me to rely on one way or another (people are rightfully being suspicious of his lurking), I don't know if I can convince bessie for long (though she's being suspicious of a bunch of people), Mark seems like a decent lynch candidate to me but people are INSISTING on town reading him, so I dunno, maybe just murder him, and jimbob is acting a bit weirder than usual so might be something good to push a lynch onto.

Of course, I'll say this, then Zen will flipflop on his reads tomorrow and drag all of town onto this gigantic wagon on me when I was feeling so clever :P

Honestly wondering whether it would be best to kill bessie or something and watch some fireworks, but then there's the really outside chance that she DOES have the Sash, and I don't want to steal it because then it might give a paper trail to the killer.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:02 am UTC

B99
Spoiler:
If this lynch doesn't kill me the tension will. Jeez...
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:20 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Well, a fairly successful D1 I think. Have to deflect all the suspicion that is sure to come my way if plytho flips town, but that should be fun to do :D

Now to just post stuff in here as if I'm not spending a bunch of time in night chat.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:04 am UTC

B99
Spoiler:
Plytho was executed by the group vote and is dead. Role reveal will happen in the morning.
I thought we were going to minimize use of the word lynch and dead and just go with "eliminated" this game. I was looking forward to some non-violent flavor and changing the norm of our language use.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:11 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Hi plytho! :twisted:

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:36 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:B99
Spoiler:
Plytho was executed by the group vote and is dead. Role reveal will happen in the morning.
I thought we were going to minimize use of the word lynch and dead and just go with "eliminated" this game. I was looking forward to some non-violent flavor and changing the norm of our language use.


B99, BoomFrog may read

Spoiler:
I am using dead in the bold text but nobody will die in the game flavour, if that helps?
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:12 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Well, that was intense. I guess I'll take pride in the fact that both of my suggested vig targets were scum. Damn, so close to an amazing town start. I really hope someone reconsiders my vic read.

A bit frustrated by bessie's misunderstanding being such a factor in my lynch. At least she'll be happy to know my exact role when her backup kicks in (I assume D2, rather than N1).

Sorry bessie for being so snappy in the end. After spending all that effort on the game (and having the time for it) it was really frustrating that I didn't have the time to discuss things through with you.

@Laserguy, I'd still like you to copy-paste that line. (this has nothing to do with the fact that Vicarin is actually scum.)

Thanks guys for not quoting me. Boardgames were fun and I managed not to think about the game for the first time in a week.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:16 am UTC

B99 (@plytho)
Spoiler:
Rosa is one of the two roles bessie can't inherit. But yeah, your reads were very good this game. :D

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:55 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Oh, cruel fate getting me lynched D1 of my favorite flavor games. Madge, I'm loving it, sorry for thinking you might have got cheddar's name wrong. Moody being Holt makes so much sense!

Thanks, Sabrar. Too bad about the backup. That would have been nice. Does that mean bessie gets no power? How does that work? I really like the fact that backup starts with the sash. If she ever has to claim it'll be clear she couldn't target N1.

besssie wrote:
plytho wrote:
besssie wrote:Interesting that BoomFrog got an apology for an insult, and I got a vote for just being overly aggressive.
Do you really think these two situations are remotely the same?

BoomFrog personally insulted me.
You were aggressive in-game, magnifying my scum ping on you. That's why I voted.
There is a difference. You were calm and even humble in the face of personal insult. You flew off the handle at a game-related slight. My instinct would be that the opposite would be true, but perhaps this is a meta read the type I am not good at. Still noting this response for future.
When someone points out I'm behaving in a mean or jerky way then and I think they may have a point I'm calm and humble as I try to correct my behavior or their perception of my behavior. (See thisinteraction between BoomFrog an Vicarin for a similar example.)

I don't think I flew off the handle in texas. I wasn't responding to a perceived slight. That was a strong response to a strong scum ping.

I think I know what had bessie confused now. I don't think she had/understood the heist ability.

I hope nobody sheeps BoomFrog for an easy win :?

Boom: loudener
Laser: singing cop
Bessie: backup
Mark: doctor
Zen: messaging
jimbob: roleblocker

I guess mpolo is the SK, then?

Cool roles!
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:35 am UTC

B99 (@plytho)
Spoiler:
- bessie inherits the first power that is eligible, could be from the kill N1, could be D2 lynch, whenever. Up until that she has a 1-shot Tracker for N1 (I wanted the backup to actually do something N1). Though jimbob is planning to roleblock her and Vicarin is planning to nk her so this might not come up at all...
- moody started with the Sash because he was the first to confirm in thread, not because he was backup. We wanted it to be 'random'.
- mpolo is indeed SK (specifically Arsonist because Madge really wanted that role to be in the game)

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:59 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Oh, ok, one shot tracker makes sense too.

A bessie NK actually seems pretty good for town. She's a fine mislynch candidate. I'd expect LaserGuy or Zen to be the target. Keeping them both around is a plus for town. It's also great for the heist. Would be pretty boring if the sash did not move all game.
Killing bessie so soon after replacing is pretty harsh and the main reason she wasn't my second preferred vig.

I like that randomization :D

Arsonist, I guess that means Mark could only protect against the mafia kill.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:02 pm UTC

Madge wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:B99
Spoiler:
Plytho was executed by the group vote and is dead. Role reveal will happen in the morning.
I thought we were going to minimize use of the word lynch and dead and just go with "eliminated" this game. I was looking forward to some non-violent flavor and changing the norm of our language use.


B99, BoomFrog may read

Spoiler:
I am using dead in the bold text but nobody will die in the game flavour, if that helps?


Spoiler:
It's good (and I'm enjoying the flavor despite never seeing the show). And I wanted to let you know I appreciate it. But I think we could go a step further and use eliminated instead of dead. I think it'd be a good habit for the whole group to move towards. I don't think it will cause any confusion if it's used consistently.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:50 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
Madge wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:B99
Spoiler:
Plytho was executed by the group vote and is dead. Role reveal will happen in the morning.
I thought we were going to minimize use of the word lynch and dead and just go with "eliminated" this game. I was looking forward to some non-violent flavor and changing the norm of our language use.


B99, BoomFrog may read

Spoiler:
I am using dead in the bold text but nobody will die in the game flavour, if that helps?


Spoiler:
It's good (and I'm enjoying the flavor despite never seeing the show). And I wanted to let you know I appreciate it. But I think we could go a step further and use eliminated instead of dead. I think it'd be a good habit for the whole group to move towards. I don't think it will cause any confusion if it's used consistently.


B99 @ boomfrog

Spoiler:
I'll think about it. Part of the reason for using dead is trying to use different words for vote offs and night kills, you can use "executed" and "murdered" to have two different connotations just to underscore that they're two different game mechanics.

But my vocabulary is failing me for a non-violent way to do that. Open to suggestions.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:01 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Just having a jolly old time in my mafia chat.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby BoomFrog » Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:03 am UTC

B99
Spoiler:
We're talking about you Vicarin. We're talking about you... :twisted:
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:04 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Now I'm just wondering what all these other Gojoe posts from N1 are about...

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:06 pm UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Obviously all about you, Vicarin :D

Also, I'm hopeful about Zen. In his last response to me he answered three of the five questions. The other two were my stronger evidence on Vic so I hope he took note of it but didn't want to alert Vic about it.

On the language stuff, I have to say I'm glad the flavor isn't going to be actually murderous. That would be quite at odds with the actual show. I wouldn't like to read about all those lovely characters actually dying.

I guess we can think about some alternative terms for lynch and NK and people being "dead". What about "removed from the game" for being "dead", lynch could "voted off" and for NK "removed from the game at night" but that's a mouthful (how does that work for text?) so maybe something shorter is needed for players to use.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:54 pm UTC

B99
Spoiler:
I'm very much looking forward to how people will react to the night-results.
- BoomFrog is making mpolo Loud N2. Normally his target would be unaware of this but mpolo is a Self-Watcher so he will be aware that BoomFrog targeted him. However Zen is sending an anonymous message to mpolo, basically claiming to be BoomFrog and stating that he is a traitor on mpolo's side. This is a very nice trap and precisely because of mpolo being aware of BoomFrog targeting him he just might believe this which could lead to him being outted. Also bessie will see mpolo priming her which result will contradict any future self-watcher claims. On the other hand bessie will receive a Not-Mafia result on mpolo (courtesy of LaserGuy). So there will be a tangled web...
- Mafia is afraid that somitomi will be tracked so Vicarin is performing the kill. However somitomi is the Strongman and Doc!Mark chose to protect the right person (LaserGuy). No nk will definitely hide the fact that there is an SK in the game. Mafia will guess that Mark is the Doc (because of Vicarin following him), so they might try to kill him tomorrow (which would cause Mark's target to die as well). But Zen decided to protect Mark so if they continue to not use the Strongman then that will also fail.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:12 pm UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Exciting!
Is mpolo also aware of Zen targeting him then?
How does the arsonist work?
What is jimbob doing?
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby bessie » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:17 pm UTC

Brooklyn 99

Spoiler:
A few observations. I did a quick read. I was going to do a detailed read over the weekend, but I didn’t want to pour a lot of time in this so I wouldn’t be too disappointed because I realized I’m probably dead tonight. Because as Vicarin pointed out with one hour to go, the sash holder is either me or scum.

All my posts in this game were entirely truthful. I was playing from memory as I went along, since I didn’t have my computer to make notes and spreadsheets as I read, which help me organize my thoughts (and I am notoriously absentminded, I didn’t even remember my role name, just my three abilities). This is not a good style for me. I read pages 1-3 on my phone/ipad at my hotel and responded to things as I saw them. I read pages 4-9 on an airplane, which is not a good place as I was sick much of the time. Most of those notes made it to the thread with minimal modifications a couple hours after I got home as I was falling asleep. My Friday reads list was mostly gut, which is also not something I’m good at.

Why does my gut keep telling me I need to take a closer look at Zen?

I think there is something I’m not understanding about the sash mechanics. The entire sash win con thing doesn’t make sense to me. But even though it is supposed to be a primary goal, I am treating it as a secondary and I’m not going to bother trying to figure it out yet. It will probably become clearer as the game progresses. I’m going to be pissed if this is something that you need flavor knowledge to understand. plytho if you are town why didn’t you try to help me understand what I am missing instead of just being confrontational for me not getting it? I tried to be as transparent as possible as to how I was reading and analyzing the game.

I hope I don’t get killed as I would like to really play, not just observe, but I’m not feeling to good about my chances.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:01 pm UTC

B99
Spoiler:
plytho wrote:1. Is mpolo also aware of Zen targeting him then?
2. How does the arsonist work?
3. What is jimbob doing?
1. Yes, mpolo will know that Zen, bessie and BoomFrog all targeted him but he won't know any of the abilities.
2. Arsonist is a special kind of SK who needs to prime their targets first and then ignite/detonate them all during another night.
3. jimbob is trying to block bessie but he will be unsuccessful because bessie has the Sash (which will be stolen by LaserGuy).

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:17 pm UTC

B99

Spoiler:
@Sabrar: oh, I looked at the mafiascum wiki where arsonist is just a differently flavored kill.
Will jimbob get any feedback from the failed block. Will it hint at the sash?


@Bessie, I'm still not entirely sure what you misinterpreted. I think it was about my response to that vic post. Where he's telling me to focus on winning with town instead of winning the sash. I think that the wording confused you into thinking I had a sash wincon that was different than the others? I don't think I was confrontational in my earliest responses. I was under the impression that I was clear and you'd see what you missed. When you voted for me I was out of time so I only had those quick posts to respond. I really didn't have enough time to figure out where you got it wrong and explain it to you. I was having dinner and had to leave to go boardgaming. I was snappy and confrontational because I was frustrated because "a lost of work and effort" had been my main tool D1 and due to your late arrival I couldn't use that with you. I knew if I had the time I'd be able to clear things up.

Aside from the Vic post I now think you misunderstood the heist ability. Particularly the fact that it's a passive ability that is based on targeting abilities. So what I was saying is "no, I'm just town with normal town abilities". Hmm, I guess I should have said that :D

It's hard to explain what a person is misunderstanding if you don't know what assumptions that misunderstanding is based on.

I also had a somewhat scummy read on you based on moody so you showing up late with a misunderstanding to lynch me matched with that read. So I was simultaneously reading you, defending myself and trying to clarify things all while having dinner and getting ready to leave.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:10 pm UTC

B99
Spoiler:
plytho wrote:Will jimbob get any feedback from the failed block. Will it hint at the sash?
We won't tell jimbob that his block failed but he will know that bessie had the sash.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:38 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:B99
Spoiler:
I'm very much looking forward to how people will react to the night-results.
- BoomFrog is making mpolo Loud N2. Normally his target would be unaware of this but mpolo is a Self-Watcher so he will be aware that BoomFrog targeted him. However Zen is sending an anonymous message to mpolo, basically claiming to be BoomFrog and stating that he is a traitor on mpolo's side. This is a very nice trap and precisely because of mpolo being aware of BoomFrog targeting him he just might believe this which could lead to him being outted. Also bessie will see mpolo priming her which result will contradict any future self-watcher claims. On the other hand bessie will receive a Not-Mafia result on mpolo (courtesy of LaserGuy). So there will be a tangled web...
- Mafia is afraid that somitomi will be tracked so Vicarin is performing the kill. However somitomi is the Strongman and Doc!Mark chose to protect the right person (LaserGuy). No nk will definitely hide the fact that there is an SK in the game. Mafia will guess that Mark is the Doc (because of Vicarin following him), so they might try to kill him tomorrow (which would cause Mark's target to die as well). But Zen decided to protect Mark so if they continue to not use the Strongman then that will also fail.


B99 @ Sabrar

Spoiler:
Didn't we decide that Seraph Knight protected against Strongman kills?

EDIT: okay, just re-read the role PM, it's explicit: all kills except for lynches, it says. There's something that protects against Strongman, right?

"in which case the factional night-kill cannot be prevented by most protective roles" is in the role PM after all
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:44 pm UTC

B99 @ plytho

Spoiler:
Sneak peek: the flavour is that voted off people get put on "community outreach" duty on another floor, and that people who are killed are handcuffed to the table in the interrogation room.

I've just realised what a big job writing all the flavour is and I know I have a huge pile of reports on my desk for today, so I'm hoping I can whip it out in time. I've done the daystart flavour already (thank god!), but it needs editing, because someone changed their kill target, which is annoying because I wrote a pretty OK joke in it. Hopefully that person will still die at some point so I can use it.

And yeah, the plan was never to have people actually die in flavour, it's way contrary to the spirit of the Heist!
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:48 pm UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Oh, a big spoiler discussion? I wanna know what the hell is going on so bad...

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:10 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Vic is going to be so disappointed when he finally reads all this.....


Also, I'm hoping to whip the flavour out in time to start Day 2 on time, but it might be 4 or 5 hours late.

EDIT: you saw nothing. I'm a flavour machine! Time to work for ~15 minutes and then send out all the flavour. And watch Sabrar freak out because I stuffed something up :D :D :D
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:56 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Soooooo my kill got blocked. On LaserGuy. And I know Mark used a protective ability, and I know I wasn't roleblocked. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I think he's gonna have to die either today or tonight. How ANNOYING :evil:

Might have to change up my Follower claim target if I get pressure put on me though, be a bit suss if I go "Oh yeah, I followed the Doc N1 and then he got murdered N2 after successfully protecting someone N1. Totally not a rolecop btw". Maybe I can try to figure out Zen's ability ASAP and claim I targeted him? Or claim I targeted somitomi (hey, scum read, makes sense to me!).

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby dimochka » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:59 am UTC

plytho wrote:I'm doing great. I'm going to be a dad in a couple of months. :shock: still feels weird to say that. The forum is chugging along nicely, one game at a time.

Amazing! Congrats!
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:32 am UTC

Thanks :D
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:16 am UTC

B99 @Madge

Spoiler:
Just want to say that that N1 results flavour was hilarious, hope you keep that up :lol:.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:24 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:B99 @Madge

Spoiler:
Just want to say that that N1 results flavour was hilarious, hope you keep that up :lol:.


B99 (vic may read)

Spoiler:
Glad you're enjoying it! I will try and keep it up unless we end up in a huge time crunch. Jake is a fun character because he's considered the main character in the ensemble cast, so he's got a whole lot of fun moments and a great sense of humour as a character. Plus, three actions means it's fun to write them off each other! In particular it's fun to come up with the fake names and backstories.

I plan to post all the flavour at the end :)
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Vicarin » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:29 am UTC

Madge wrote:
Vicarin wrote:B99 @Madge

Spoiler:
Just want to say that that N1 results flavour was hilarious, hope you keep that up :lol:.


B99 (vic may read)

Spoiler:
Glad you're enjoying it! I will try and keep it up unless we end up in a huge time crunch. Jake is a fun character because he's considered the main character in the ensemble cast, so he's got a whole lot of fun moments and a great sense of humour as a character. Plus, three actions means it's fun to write them off each other! In particular it's fun to come up with the fake names and backstories.

I plan to post all the flavour at the end :)


B99 @Madge

Spoiler:
Yeah, I liked my Follower result leading into my NK target on a 'completely unrelated' note.

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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:35 am UTC

B99 @ all may read

Spoiler:
there's an Easter egg of sorts in the flavour this year. Anyone got it yet? It will get more obvious later on so keep an eye out. Don't worry it's not game relevent.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:40 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
Zeniiii wrote:
plytho wrote:
sorry, dude
No worries. Just catch Vic for me :wink:

LaserGuyii wrote:I'm going to keep my promise to plytho and give Vicarin a more thorough review today.
I'm really happy about this.
I think if Boom is Town, probably one scum in {Vic, jimbob} and one in {mpolo, somitomi}. If Boom is scum, the partner is... :? Probably bessie, I guess.
Nice reads by LaserGuy there.


On another note: mpolo is outing himself right away makes him the most likely lynch for today.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:41 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
WHY IS TOWN ZENII LYING ABOUT BEING BP!?!??!?! I DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND IT IS MAKING ME UPSET
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:47 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
What is a BP?
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Madge » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:52 am UTC

plytho wrote:B99

Spoiler:
What is a BP?


B99

Spoiler:
bulletproof
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby plytho » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:11 am UTC

B99

Spoiler:
I see. Hmm. I think it's a way to protect himself from the night kill. Scum is going to be very hesitant to target him if they weren't targeting him already because that would mean he's still bulletproof. If they did target him they're less likely to to target him again as he is now a likely doctor target. This increases his chances of winning the sash without harming town. Well, unless you consider a more confusion about who might have been the NK target and who might have performed it to be harmful to town. Without this claim "town" knows Mark protected LaserGuy (possible target) and jimbob blocked bessie (possible shooter) Zen's claim confuses those results.
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Re: The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

Postby Sabrar » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:14 am UTC

B99
Spoiler:
Madge wrote:WHY IS TOWN ZENII LYING ABOUT BEING BP!?!??!?! I DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND IT IS MAKING ME UPSET
There is a 'tradition' of Zen - and maybe other HBC-ers as well - lying as Town, sometimes with good result (in Crossover we ended up nk-ing Zen instead of a better target because we believed him). However I don't see what this gambit is supposed to achieve, scum knows whether they targeted Zen so the only people he will fool are Town. Plus from Zen's pov if scum indeed targeted him then he must have been protected by a second Doc, in which case the BP wouldn't be lost so the Doc could 'out' him.
Yeah, I have no idea why he went for this...


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