The Gojoe Memorial Mafia Discussion Thread

[LaserGuy]

[edit]I hate that copping mpolo was technically a sound play but may end up leading a loss for Town

Copping mpolo wasn't a bad call, but you were reading him as likely indy, so maybe with the way your power works he wasn't the best choice actually. I think an important consideration in choosing a cop target is to say, "if this person comes back as "not mafia" am I going to want to lynch them anyway?" If yes, then don't bother. (Yes this message is actually about me being copped then still treated with suspicion)

Well, that's your fault for being too good at this game

[Vicarin]

Never forget WoT3 where BoomFrog got copped twice and me, claiming mafia, still almost got him lynched .

[plytho]

Poetry

Spoiler:

Well, that's interesting
I protected LaserGuy, but received no result. Meaning LaserGuy wasn't targeted with a kill (or someone messed with my result). Since no one else died that means scum withheld. It seems unlikely for two scum to withhold and since Wam did have a town kill that covers the death flavor aspect of my role.
Now I'm wondering what to claim. Seriously considering Zenning it and claiming watcher on LaserGuy. If somitomi visited LaserGuy that's problematic, though. Hmm, gotta figure out what that compulsory power could be. Hmm also need to link the 3-1-1 to my claim.

Withholding kind of makes sense for everyone, except maybe somi. Diemo would be in huge trouble in 2-1 and has a little wiggle room there. Laser is in a comfortable position and just needs to survive the lynch to win. More worried about watcher than doctor? He can't be linked to the elimination if he doesn't eliminate and was being read most townie by 2/3. Somi could have similar reasoning actually. If all you need is a misvote, why eliminate at night. Just keep more targets for the misvote.

Hmm, all the more reason to keep my power secret.

[BoomFrog]

B99

Spoiler:

You want her to make a read of your read of JimBob's read of moody's (now bessie's) read of Mark's question and retraction, and then you're going to form a bessie read off that?

That's Mafia, baby!

ded

I forgot this interaction. That was my favorite part of D1.

[plytho]

poetry

Spoiler:

If if lie about my power we might have two shots left as scum.
This requires me to survive the day and me not not being targeted by scum at night and me getting it right at night and protecting the townie.

I think surviving should be feasable.
Getting it right could be helped by confident scum hammering for the win.
Not being targeted is pretty much fifty-fifty. Gotta make sure my false claim doesn't scream 'could secretly be a doc'.

An honest claim takes away that option. I'm pretty sure I can fall back on my crumb if I'm caught with the fake to avoid the mislynch.
Although scum fake crumbing doctor, using a different false claim when it seems like there's a save, then falling back on the doctor claim after nobody else claims doctor and the original false claim is countered is a plausible narrative. Hmm..
Need to think more. This edge seems really useful but I don't want to lose twenty dollars and my self respect taking this risk.

Town to scum:

LaserGuy has clearly been taking charge. I still feel his similar reasoning makes him look very townie. Rolecop is a scummy power, though. Great to help scum find the doc or the poisoner. The vote switching at day's end is also peculiar and could have been motivated by greedy LaserGuy trying to figure out diemo's role, leaving only me and somi as unknowns.
The move back to wam makes sense based on wam's LG vote. Laser doesn't want to get poisoned and killing the poisoner makes sense for possible poisoner targets. (tbh, since wam was voting me earlier I wasn't to keen on having him around either.)

Somi has kept to the sidelines, mostly sheeping LaserGuy and me. Since my reasoning is impeccable (with a slight wam hiccup) I can't fault him for that. I still kind of doubt that somi would have withheld. I really wonder why town!LaserGuy didn't leave the opportunity for somi to hammer Diemo.

Diemo was the only one apparently right about wam (although being right isn't that hard if you're scum so no credit here). Wam's flip does lend some credibility to his statement that scum Diemo wouldn't push Laser.
I still disagree with Diemo's points on Laser. Well, point 1, the strong town read on me is classic Laser, not scummy. Point 2, pushing wam for his Diemo vote isn't what Laser was doing, not scummy. Point 3, pushing wam for the diemo unvote, I'm not that sure I support LaserGuy here. Don't think a townie would necessarily leave the vote.
His carelessness about being voted was nice and came across as confident town or scum, but mostly town. He also stuck to his guns with that LaserGuy vote. I feel scum would have tried to move to wam. Hmm, maybe that's what Laser saw when he moved to wam, why didn't he say it though?

I don't have clarity.

[BoomFrog]

poetry

Spoiler:

Doctor: You can target a player each night. Your target will be saved from any type of night elimination. If you block an elimination in this way you will be told what the attempted cause of elimination was.

No result

What would my result look like if a player wasn't targeted by elimination?

If your target didn't need protection or if you were roleblocked, then you would get the result you got of "no result".

Does that answer your question?

It does, thanks.

Too bad, I had all this reasoning based on this mafiascum link

Hmm. My experience on this forum is that watchers and trackers who don't see anyone visit get "no result" so I was following that precedent.

[plytho]

Poetry

Spoiler:

I hope this false claim works out.
Hmm, Diemo tracker claim on wam is odd. I'd have expected him to target laser for sure if he's town. Is he guessing somi's power to get town cred? If so, I do hope it fails.
Somi was online right before I posted, too bad. I really want to know his power. Maybe waiting for tomorrow is better. I'm burning through posts here.

[plytho]

Poetry

Spoiler:

Ok, so LaserGuy isn't lying about his role, nor target.
I'm lying about my role but not my target.
Diemo could be lying
Somi isn't lying about his role and probably not about his target.

Rolecop: generally a scummy power
Roleblocker: generally a scummy power
Tracker: not scummy, but might not be true

My actual power is the towniest of them all. My claim, not so much.

If diemo is scum and tried to eliminate he knew he was roleblocked so could claim anything.
If somi is scum, he roleblocked his scummiest read while withholding the kill. Makes perfect sense.
If Laser is scum he rolecopped his second scummiest read (?) while withholding the kill, assuming he'd survive.

Hmm, why was Laser so open about rolecopping somi? He should have suggested a different claim order as he was the second towniest read. Should have been diemo, somi, Laser, me.
Now his supposed strongest scum read (somi) gets to claim last.

Makes no sense and neither does that switching late D1.
Scummy

Somi is a compulsory roleblocker. Hmm, why compulsory? Does that penalty even make sense for town? I see no reason for town to withhold at all. Scum on the other hand might not want to be tracked to two places at once.
On the other hand if he eliminates one person and blocks another only the third could track him. Not that big a risk. Although two out of three players would notice being blocked.
scummy

Diemo
He was in a perfectly safe position to claim anything if he did try to eliminate or has another power that allowed him to notice being blocked.
Positive point is wam's read on him

Clearly I'm the only townie

DSL?

actually 2-1-1? with both Laser and somi withholding their shot?

If somi is scum, my backup plan is useless if he's not voted off. He can just block one and remove the other.

I'm kind of thinking Laser and somi right now.

In that scenario we're in trouble and our only chance is to vote somi off and protect diemo and somehow get laser to target diemo?
How do I do that? Hmm, appeal to emotions. I want Laser to be nice so me, so maybe I should consider buddying? Point out the risk of 2-1-1 and convince him he still needs to eliminate scum in the night (and it's not me). Hmm, that might be best.
So I need to push an everyone but me is scummy story. Easy, since I actually feel that way.
Maybe I shouldn't include Laser too much in that story?

All of this will fall apart as soon as people start pushing me instead :s

I probably should make sure my interpretation of all the claims is in the thread first.

Then be quiet for a while since I'll be at 4 posts vs 2 and 1 for the others.

Hmm, thinking further, pushing somi is exactly what scum should be doing. If they think there's a risk of 2-1-1 they need to take somi out in order to be able to win. Otherwise they risk being blocked and eliminated. Or even if he's town, just blocked.
So coming out with a push on somi makes me look scummy. Maybe I should put the screws on LaserGuy anyway? See if he goes omgus or tries to push somi. But that means he'll know I think he's scum and he might target me.

Or just be quiet and read what others are saying while they catch up to my 4 posts.
Not voting here is pretty weak. I hope I don't get pushed for this.

[Sabrar]

Just as a reminder, Christmas Knight (aka Secret Santa 2018) is in sign-ups. It would be great to get a few more players. If you haven't yet sent in a role, I'd appreciate it if you can try to get it in as soon as possible, so that dimochka and I can start working on set-up and balance.

When do you expect to start?

[SuicideJunkie]

I've chipped in.
What's the worst that could happen?
Also, I had a power idea too compelling to not submit.

[Sabrar]

Welcome! Secret Santa is always a lot of fun.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Just as a reminder, Christmas Knight (aka Secret Santa 2018) is in sign-ups. It would be great to get a few more players. If you haven't yet sent in a role, I'd appreciate it if you can try to get it in as soon as possible, so that dimochka and I can start working on set-up and balance.

When do you expect to start?

Sorry, I've been a bit unwell the past few days so haven't been giving this much thought, but hopefully early next week.

[Diemo]

Poetry

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure that I am screwed. If I somehow manage to convice them to lynch Laser Guy, somi will block me and I will be lynched the next day once Laser flips town. On the other hand, it is hard to switch targets when you only have 140 characters to work with, and if I suddenly switch to somi, it will be super obvious why. That roleblock really messed up my plans.

On game thoughts, I think having only a hundred and fourty characters is too limiting. It really makes it hard to make a good argument. It also makes it take a lot longer, because I have to condense everything down so much.

[BoomFrog]

Poetry

Spoiler:

It also makes it take a lot longer, because I have to condense everything down so much.

Poetry (Diemo may read)

Spoiler:

Yes, it takes longer to compose a post, but it takes a lot less time to read the thread. I think the total time commitment per person is lower overall, and importantly won't scale up as much for larger games.

[dimochka]

Just as a reminder, Christmas Knight (aka Secret Santa 2018) is in sign-ups. It would be great to get a few more players. If you haven't yet sent in a role, I'd appreciate it if you can try to get it in as soon as possible, so that dimochka and I can start working on set-up and balance.

When do you expect to start?

Sorry, I've been a bit unwell the past few days so haven't been giving this much thought, but hopefully early next week.

I'm setting a roughly 48 hour deadline as of now to sign up, and additional 24 hours (though preferably not that long) to submit a role. Jimbob and I can balance in the following 2 days and probably start then.

I'll start thinking through current submissions and stuff tomorrow.

[SuicideJunkie]

Poetry (Diemo may read)

Spoiler:

Yes, it takes longer to compose a post, but it takes a lot less time to read the thread. I think the total time commitment per person is lower overall, and importantly won't scale up as much for larger games.

Poetry (Deimo/Boomfrog may read)

Spoiler:

Not sure this deserves a spoiler still, since it is pretty far off topic, but better to be safe!
That's a very important factor early on... way more people reading it than writing it. Although that fact does magnify any negative effects of encouraging dense encodings that take longer to puzzle out.

[plytho]

Poetry

Spoiler:

Hmm, nobody is voting somi so far. I really expected scum to target him. What is up with that?

LaserGuy is clearly going for the straightforward solution of diemo's nk being blocked by townie somi.

That's only one of many possible scenarios, though.

sD tL tS: vote off Diemo wins; or vote somi save Laser; or vote Laser block Diemo
tD sL tS: vote off Laser wins; or vote somi save Diemo; or vote diemo block Laser
tD tL sS: vote off somi wins;

sD sL tS: vote scum block scum
sD tL sS: vote somi save Laser
tD sL sS: vote somi save Diemo

So voting somitomi off gives us winning chances in 5/6 scenarios. (and is necessary in 3/6)
Not voting somi gives a winning chance in 3/6 scenarios.

So, assuming I read everyone as equally scummy, I should vote somi.
In 4/5 vote-somi scenarios I still need to figure out if Laser or Diemo is scum, though.

Other town aren't aware of my power so they wouldn' want to lose town!somi

sD tL tS: vote off Diemo wins; or vote somi save Laser; or vote Laser block Diemo
tD sL tS: vote off Laser wins; or vote somi save Diemo; or vote diemo block Laser
tD tL sS: vote off somi wins;

sD sL tS: Vote scum block scum
sD tL sS: loss if no cross kill
tD sL sS: loss if no cross kill

for regular town voting somi wins 1/4 winnable scenarios.


Right, so Laser or Diemo:

Laser has been thinking along the same lines as me leading to the wam vote off.
However, he has been acting very rolefishy and his late diemo push looks like him trying to get another claim to narrow his rolecop target and pick an elimination target.

Diemo was endorsed by wam and was surprisingly casual about being the lynch target.
It's odd that he claimed it was between Laser and him when it wasn't really the case yet. (wam only voted Laser afterwards)
It's also odd that he didn't target LaserGuy with his tracker. Why point out the choice was between me and somi? Is this a slip? Was Laser his elimination target?

Not voting somi is another point for them, but that may be then day-end plan still.


Somi has generally been very sheepy and only has 2 posts so far compared to 4/5 for the rest of us.
Also, according to my scum-votes-somi theory he must be the scum.
Hmm, scum!somi's double attack makes it unlikely for there to be a second scum with somi. Scum!somi is unbeatable N2, which wouldn't be fair to his competition.

I hope I didn't take too big a risk here.

[bessie]

dimochka and jimbob, take your time with the game, I'm sure none of us mind the delay.

[dimochka]

dimochka and jimbob, take your time with the game, I'm sure none of us mind the delay.

Good because I'm on two projects at work, a 3rd research project for a different team, writing a case interview for future candidates, interviewing current candidates, starting a new tutoring part-time opportunity, advising a start-up, and somehow trying to fit in gym, food and sleep

[MasterOfAll]

If you want something done, ask a busy person.

[BoomFrog]

Poetry

Spoiler:

I'm guessing that BoomFrog gave Town all scummy powers, and whomever claims cop or doc or tracker is probably mafia

Busted...

Wait, no, there is a real town doc. But the doc false claimed... Maybe I should have put 2 actual townie roles for town. Or made the compulsive roleblocker scum after all...

[Madge]

If you want something done, ask a busy person.

QFT.

I was discussing timetables and goals with my partner, and realised that the reason I got one hour of study done every day is that I knew if I didn't start studying the second I finished work and finish an hour later, I'd not get another opportunity to study in peace the rest of the evening. Meanwhile he's at home all day so if he plans to start studying at 10am and he's partway through an interesting youtube video, he can just get it done at 11am instead....

Also I think busy people are more productive in general, hence the fact they're already busy.

I hope you enjoyed my philosophical diversion.

And yes, take your time jim/dim!!! We are all very patient and not at all over-eager. We are happy to wait until the end of the month if that's what it takes

[Sabrar]

Poetry

Spoiler:

I'm loving how the players re-invented the lingo due to character limit.

[BoomFrog]

Poetry (Outside Opinions please)

Spoiler:

Somitomi has not read their modprod and may need to be replaced. If I do I will extend the time deadline. Do you think I should reset the post count of the replaced player? Replacing in is hard and usually requires extra interaction to establish a read. But we should consider other scenarios. If somi had posted 8/10 times already would I really give the replacement all 10 posts? That send too powerful. Maybe give the replacement +4 posts back to the max of 10?

[Deva]

Poetry Slam Mafia

Spoiler:

Votes for returning half of all used posts, rounded up. Ought to suffice.

[plytho]

Poetry

Spoiler:

I'm quite confident in that somi town slip I found. Now I just hope LaserGuy isn't scum. Or if he is, that somi blocks LaserGuy instead of me. I'm definitely protecting somitomi tonight, not that that's going to make a difference

I have no idea how to convince somitomi to block Laser instead of me. I think being very open about it will come across as scummy. I don't want to say "block Laser tonight". I still have my doctor claim + crumb but I don't know if that will convince somitomi. These strategies might come across as scummy manipulation.

If Laserguy is actually scum he played an impressive game.

My guess as to what BoomFrog asked about is scum vs roleblocker 1v1 endgame.

[BoomFrog]

Poetry

Spoiler:

My guess as to what BoomFrog asked about is scum vs roleblocker 1v1 endgame.

Your punishment for trying to guess the contents of a GoJoe post is to be teased with quote pings in a spoiler.

[plytho]

Poetry

Spoiler:

Or it was about how to deal with modprodded diemo.

Anyway, this stalemate has been pretty tense and everyone being so quiet doesn't help.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Secret Santa is nearly ready. We're just finalising the setup details. I'm quite busy for the next few days, so it might not be until Saturday that I get things up, but hopefully we'll manage before then.

[plytho]

Poetry

Spoiler:

Hmm, this has been an interesting experiment. I think one improvement would be to make the posts limit per RL day. Then there would be some "use it or lose it" feeling that would promote discussion.

I'm not sure that would be an improvement. It might be too restricting. It would also be messy when taking timezones into account.

[SuicideJunkie]

To avoid timezone issues, you could just make it max N posts per ~24 hours rather than per day. Post whenever, and your submit buttons are reloaded 23 hours later (to avoid minute creep)

Although, speaking of timey-wimey effects...
I wonder how practical it could be made to have temporal shenanigans?
EG:
1) Each player is assigned a time period to read from, and a potentially different time period to post to.
2) Posts are PMed to a mod-bot. Some wibbly math is done and soon-to-be-public posts are PMed early to the appropriate players based on the relative timeline propagation effects.
3) Mod-bot eventually copies the posts into the game thread at the times and in the order seen by an outside observer once history becomes fixed. Some answers will naturally arrive before the questions are asked, and people may be rightly accused of hammering people they haven't yet voted for.
4) Lynchification and NKs should be irreversible. Although some messages sent before death may arrive after death.
5) Are the time travelers future-scum trying to disrupt history to rule the world? Or are they future-town trying to kill past-scum and prevent WW3? Can anyone successfully pretend to be from a different time period?

[somitomi]

To avoid timezone issues, you could just make it max N posts per ~24 hours rather than per day. Post whenever, and your submit buttons are reloaded 23 hours later (to avoid minute creep)

Although, speaking of timey-wimey effects...
I wonder how practical it could be made to have temporal shenanigans?
EG:
1) Each player is assigned a time period to read from, and a potentially different time period to post to.
2) Posts are PMed to a mod-bot. Some wibbly math is done and soon-to-be-public posts are PMed early to the appropriate players based on the relative timeline propagation effects.
3) Mod-bot eventually copies the posts into the game thread at the times and in the order seen by an outside observer once history becomes fixed. Some answers will naturally arrive before the questions are asked, and people may be rightly accused of hammering people they haven't yet voted for.
4) Lynchification and NKs should be irreversible. Although some messages sent before death may arrive after death.
5) Are the time travelers future-scum trying to disrupt history to rule the world? Or are they future-town trying to kill past-scum and prevent WW3? Can anyone successfully pretend to be from a different time period?

Good thing I still have the Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations...
Also, what?

[LaserGuy]

I've seen games where time travel (for night actions) is a thing. The results can be very bizarre. E.g. you might have an ability that is "Target a player on night N2. That player is killed. This action may only be used on N3 or N4." Killing a player in the past undoes all of their subsequent night actions (as much as possible anyway), which could result in other players coming back to life or actions that failed now succeeding or vice versa. You can also go the other way of course, e.g. roleblock somebody at some point in the future, so even if you die that player is still blocked or whatever. I'd assume that there's probably situations where you can create a paradox and the whole world explodes, so you'd have to decide how to deal with some very complicated situations as a mod.

[SuicideJunkie]

Just a spicy flavour game idea that popped into my head.
Perhaps Masons and mafia are actually the same set of characters in two divergent timelines, and they're fighting over the divergence point in the past to try and make their timeline the real one...

I read some posts around here regarding game(s?) with paradoxical killings, and I got the impression resurrections are considered bad. Maybe that was just the particular handling of it, and a consistent set of rules would be fine?
I'm thinking that just the messages and votes would be time-tangled, but once a hammer is decided there's a synchronizing time wave to lock in the past.

[moody7277]

I've seen games where time travel (for night actions) is a thing. The results can be very bizarre. E.g. you might have an ability that is "Target a player on night N2. That player is killed. This action may only be used on N3 or N4." Killing a player in the past undoes all of their subsequent night actions (as much as possible anyway), which could result in other players coming back to life or actions that failed now succeeding or vice versa. You can also go the other way of course, e.g. roleblock somebody at some point in the future, so even if you die that player is still blocked or whatever. I'd assume that there's probably situations where you can create a paradox and the whole world explodes, so you'd have to decide how to deal with some very complicated situations as a mod.

Mpolo and I won one of those a few years back which was modded by Vytron.

[SuicideJunkie]

I suppose the creation of an intractable paradox could be the win condition of a Jester. Not sure how wise that would be for the mod to have someone try to make one, but would allow an easy out from an otherwise impossible gamestate

Perhaps a Merlin, for whom death means they keep playing, but all their previous actions are negated, and their lose condition is having mafia left alive to ruin their childhood.

[Vicarin]

Oh boy, time travel games? My favourite .

Think if I was going to do an overly complicated time travel game I'd take inspiration from one of my favourite games, Achron, seeing as they managed to make time travel work in a PvsP RTS, which sounds completely impossible.

[Sabrar]

Secret Santa 2018

Spoiler:

Town Inventor with no hard limits on what I can create. Though that might change soon once the mods see my questions.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Secret Santa 2018:

Spoiler:

Sabrar doesnt' know this but I already have some plans for what will happen if he tries to create powerful items. For example, a mass cop will likely be completely useless (random results), a mass-doctor will result in the opposite effect (i.e. it does nothing) etc. This ability might get a bit bastard, but it's a moderate level bastard game, so I'm allowed to have some fun, right?

[Vicarin]

Secret Santa 2018

Spoiler:

And so begins my vigil of waiting until someone is too busy and has to get replaced. Should be interesting watching the game until then, got quite a few players.