Polyamory and Monogamy

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

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Jesse
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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:17 am UTC

I would not mind a girlfriend of mine having sex with another person as long as she didn't lie to me about it. Maybe that is a bit strange but I am not protective about sex, I just don't want to be lied to.

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Postby aldimond » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:24 am UTC

Jesster wrote:I would not mind a girlfriend of mine having sex with another person as long as she didn't lie to me about it. Maybe that is a bit strange but I am not protective about sex, I just don't want to be lied to.


I was going to post a similar thing but I was worried that since I am drunk it would be incoherent and the tenses would be fucked-up as they may be in this sentence.

If someone cheated on me my response would be something like, "Next time just let me know, save yourself the stress of keeping a secret."

I mean if she was clearly trying to hurt me by it that's another issue entirely.
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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:28 am UTC

I think this is why I would probably suit polyamory, and I'm really interested in it with what VannA was saying. I'm not jealous over sex things, and I realise sometimes I just don't have the time to be intimate with my lady (Travelling to and from wrestling shows, travelling to Manchester, locking myself away for three-day writing stints). If someone else can keep her happy then I'm all for it.

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Postby Hawknc » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:29 am UTC

Jesster wrote:I would not mind a girlfriend of mine having sex with another person as long as she didn't lie to me about it. Maybe that is a bit strange but I am not protective about sex, I just don't want to be lied to.

Funnily enough, I think I'd be alright with it too, as long as she didn't hold me to a double standard. I can't say I'd be thrilled about it, but as long as she was upfront and said she wanted an open relationship, I could probably handle it.

Anyway, back to boobs.

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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:31 am UTC

Well, to each his own, but I think being ok with an "open relationship" is being a bit unrealistic. Let's face it, if you're in a relationship, then it's because your instincts are telling you to mate (though I do belive in love, instincts play a vital role). As such, you would naturally want to ensure that you are the only one passing along your genes through said female, and thusly, we have the emotions of jealosy, rivalry and compeditiveness in relationships. I'm sure that these, along with a range of other emotions, are suppressable, but I don't think it's healthy for a relationship in the "natural" sense, to be "open". Of course, that's assuming you have or want a relationship in the "natural" sense. If you don't love her, and you don't have feelings for her, then I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Though I wouldn't be able to trust her (I'm really a very trusting person, but once I'm betrayed, wether it's an actual betrayal or a debatable one, like in this case, I can't seem to get that trust back). And I would refuse sex (sloppy seconds? :shock: ). But that's just me.
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Postby Hawknc » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:34 am UTC

It might not work for everyone, but polyamory works for some people. There was a long discussion of it here some time back, and we have some practising folk who post here. Spread the love, man!

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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:40 am UTC

I don't suppress those emotions, I just don't seem to get them, maybe I am the Uber-Man who has surpassed his evolutionary instincts? On a serious note it really doesn't bother me, I mostly put this down to the fact that both of my father's relationships with his wives (The first one was my mother) broke up because of lies and sex and I just can't place an importance on monogamy. If I love someone then I want them to be happy and if they are unsatisfied enough to need another person to sort themselves out then so be it.

Either that, or maybe I read too much fiction in which relationships break apart because of lies and sex.

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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:41 am UTC

Yeaum... I'd rather you'd be female, and showing off breasts. But ok...

And on that note, maybe it's kinda stupid of me, posting my moobs on a thread where 99% of the readers are male? That now comes across to me as slightly useless. Pointless, even.

Jesster wrote:I don't suppress those emotions, I just don't seem to get them, maybe I am the Uber-Man who has surpassed his evolutionary instincts? On a serious note it really doesn't bother me, I mostly put this down to the fact that both of my father's relationships with his wives (The first one was my mother) broke up because of lies and sex and I just can't place an importance on monogamy. If I love someone then I want them to be happy and if they are unsatisfied enough to need another person to sort themselves out then so be it.

Either that, or maybe I read too much fiction in which relationships break apart because of lies and sex.


That is an exellent point. I've actually dated women with something like that history :P It never worked out, because I believe in love, and that I do have a soulmate out there somewhere (or many, I just need to find one), that will complete me, and make me happy... Then again, depending on a relationship to make you happy might be stupid. I'd much rather be happy because I made myself happy, but it seems like I can't... But I do want the whole nine yards, a wife, kids, a loving relationship with a person who challenges me intellectually, who shares my interests, whom I can trust completely... And just plain loves me. I admit that I need to be loved to be happy, and that's something I lack in my life. So, polygamy and polyamory is out of the question.
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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:42 am UTC

No. Funny.

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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:48 am UTC

Jesster 1 - Roffle 0
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Postby aldimond » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:55 am UTC

threadsplit - 1
aldimond - 0

:(
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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:58 am UTC

Just split this from the Boobs thread because that has a habit of getting off-topic and this is a discussion I want to restart now we have lots of new people with fresh opinions.

I constantly depend on relationships to make me happy, but not necessarily some form of soulmate, give all my love to you thing. I depend on the relationships I have with friends, I depend on people like Pip to be all onomatopaeic at me to cheer me up, or for Sarah to laugh at me when I tell her I love her for that day.

I think another part of it is being around wrestling, and with all the travelling and need for relaxing and winding-down there is plenty of promiscuity, so sex isn't treated as some special and amazing thing that occurs when you're madly in love. It's just something really fun to do.

It's when you treat things as sacred that problems arise, and maybe it isn't wrong to do that, but it's not my way.

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Postby shadebug » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:02 am UTC

see, I like to think I'd be open to it but the fact is i wouldn't, if i get into a relationship I want it to be monogamous because i think there's something important there that can only be found in two people expressing their love with each other only. I'm not sure if threeseomes and the such would be different, but I've spent a long time waiting for the right relationship instead of just going ou on the pull, anything else would seem a bit of a waste. Of course if I get into monogamous relationships and discover that they suck, i'll be sure to let you know
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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:08 am UTC

But when you spend so long waiting for that 'right relationship' it puts so much pressure on you and the other person to be perfect people and for everything to go well that it can ruin that relationship. This is specially mportant when I was involved in a long-distance relationship.

She went to a University far away to study art and I loved her more than anyone else I've ever known, but if I'd have worried about her meeting other guys and sleeping with them then it would have ruined our relationship. Yet, I could put it past me and I openly told her that I had no problem with it as long as she didnt lie to me about it. Our relationship continued strong and I am relatively sure we are still in love (Although that would be easier to tell you if I could find her).

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Postby aldimond » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:14 am UTC

I mean that I made a post in the boobs thread that really was part of this discussion but either came just before or just after the split, and now it makes me look totally incoherent.

I'm not sure that I don't deserve that, but...

Me, totally incoherent, in the boobs thread. What of my genetic imperitave!?!?!

:wink:
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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:16 am UTC

Well, they all suck, unless you find someone that's right for you. I haven't so far, so mine have all sucked. In the end.

I don't look for perfection... Though I do expect it of myself, and I do dislike myself when I can't live up to my own expectations... Which kind of doesn't make sense, but it's been beaten so firmly into me by my parents that I'm only as good as my next perfect result in something, that I can't seem to think differently, even though I want to. My point being, that I'm not sure the old "You like people for their qualitites, but love them for their flaws" is correct... I can't imagine anyone loving my flaws, and I can't imagine myself loving similar flaws in another person. The thing is, you overlook those flaws, pretend that they aren't there, because as a whole, the person your with is perfect for you. That's perfection in a relationship, and I want that. I want someone who is perfect for me, someone I can finally trust completely with everything, someonw who won't betray me, but also won't be scared off by all my "weirdnesses"... I guess I'm hoping for too much. But it's either that, or I remain alone for the rest of my life. I'm prepared for that possibility, but it depresses the hell out of me. Mostly because I don't want to be unloveable.

So monogamy, yes please. It's the only way to go for me.
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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:35 am UTC

But why do we need an exclusive and perfect love?

We are polyamorous in friendships, you realise that there won't be just one friend that suits you perfectly, you all have some common interests that means, for example, I spend time with Matt when I want to play computer games, spend time with Dave when I want to talk about comic books. Why does love become something special other than an instinct to pass on our genetics and cultural tradition.

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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:45 am UTC

Yeah, I hate the idea of a double standard. The funny thing is, when in an open relationship I often will still only have sex with that person, I'm just less interested in other people than I am in her. I'm fairly monogamous, I just realise my own shortcomings and am happier in the knowledge that my girlfriend is not going to be feeling bad or worried about things that don't concern me.

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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:49 am UTC

I'm a very moral person (and by that, I don't mean to imply that I'm better than anyone else, or that I think that I am).

That kind of double standard, to me, is wrong. But if my girlfriend came up to me and offered me an open relationship, then I really would take that as a sign that I wasn't good enough for her, not enough, and that she didn't really care for me very strongly. I would get seriously hurt, I'd never trust her again, and I probably would have ended it right there and then. If I were less of a moral person, I would have cheated.

And love isn't the same as friendship, though lovers also must be friends to have a future. No, your "true love" is someone you care so deeply about, you'd sacrifice almost anything to be with her. She would be the best part of your day, the most incredible thing to ever happen to you, your best friend, your most trusted confidante, your ally in adversity, the center of all your sexual thoughts, someone you love. That intensity of emotion is what I think is the basis of a relationship. Yes, it's totally unrealistic, but like I've already explained, I always strive for unrealistic goals, so that I'll at least get as far as possible, before failing. And you can't reach that emotional state wihtout screwing around. Though I would like to point out that someone other than me should be defending monogamy here, as I am an emotional and mental trainwreck, and I may have ideas that are so unrealistic and unfounded in reality that I may come across as insincere. But I'm not. I hope to find that love one day. I hope I do.
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Postby shadebug » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:51 am UTC

Jesster wrote:But why do we need an exclusive and perfect love?

We are polyamorous in friendships, you realise that there won't be just one friend that suits you perfectly, you all have some common interests that means, for example, I spend time with Matt when I want to play computer games, spend time with Dave when I want to talk about comic books. Why does love become something special other than an instinct to pass on our genetics and cultural tradition.


I think that's the whole point of a relationship. I'm not against friends with benefits, but if you're in a relationship it's for a reason. So a relationship is an exclusive friendship
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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:55 am UTC

What you describe as the perfect love I would pretty much describe as any one of my really good friends (Minus the sexual thoughts thing, that would probably be covered by Fiona Apple).

It is my belief that by having this ideal you set tha standard to an unrealistic high and you won't be happy. I'm nt saying monogamy can't work, but that it isn't necessarily something to aspire to. It is better to suit relationships to your needs, rather than an idealised notion given by society.

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Postby shadebug » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:57 am UTC

Jesster wrote:What you describe as the perfect love I would pretty much describe as any one of my really good friends (Minus the sexual thoughts thing, that would probably be covered by Fiona Apple).

It is my belief that by having this ideal you set tha standard to an unrealistic high and you won't be happy. I'm nt saying monogamy can't work, but that it isn't necessarily something to aspire to. It is better to suit relationships to your needs, rather than an idealised notion given by society.


I think I'm saying the same but coming to a different conclusion.
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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:03 am UTC

So all I really need to be happy in a relationship (non-monogamous), like you, would be a violent rearranging of my neural pathways (I.E. a changing of my personalitly). Great. I'll get right to that.
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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:43 am UTC

Hehe.

Jesster's said most things I would.

As the three of us, Riannah, Teaspoon, and myself are in a Polygamous relationship.. I'm married to Riannah, Teaspoon is her Boyfriend, my friend, and our housemate.

Honesty is all thats required.

If you *ever* think you can be the person to match all of another person's needs, you are in for a rude shock.

There's a lot of backstory in how we got to where we are, which can be found in the initial thread.

But.. if you can love somebody, and then love somebody else after they are gone, then the only thing stopping you from loving them both simultaneously is insecurity on your part.
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Postby AngryRobot » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:51 am UTC

I have insecurity! right here! ME! i dunno i think that bein true to one person is a pretty big show affection. and loving someone after the others gone well i havnt dated since my last gf cheated on me, i dunno why, cant find someone really but if you let them cheat on you and so forth well it'd be one giant love fest and i hate to be pessimistic but two on one will never happen to me, i'll never get the option, i know it, i cant even get onme on one :cry: But i wouldnt like to imagine whe graph we could have if we plotted out who went with who if noone cared much.
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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:10 pm UTC

That sounds lovely. And you must be very secure about yourself.

I however, am not very secure. And I am nowhere near as sociable as you most likely are. And maybe I have unrealistic expectations, and thusly are doomed to spend the rest of my life alone.

Does that make me less than you? Not in general, as I know it doesn't, but relationshipwise.
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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:12 pm UTC

I can't answer that.

You've already indicated your not happy.

Yet, I must say, you seem to take the attitude that you cannot fix the fact you are unhappy, and that somebody will come along that will make you happy.

You fit all the right little cookiecutter bits for clinical depression, you know.

You think you look crap, but that shot you posted was good. If I looked like that, I'd be a lot happier. I'm carrying way too much excess baggage.

I *know* I'm loved. The fact that my wife is free to sleep with other people, or to form equally loving relationships with them, doesn't deter from the fact she loves me.
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Postby Coruscate » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:15 pm UTC

I am hugely monogamous. I know you cite your main reason (if it is that) for being poly so that you have many people who meet all your needs, but for me, I did meet someone who filled all those needs. He was firstly my best friend who became my lover, for over 5 years, we had fun together, we supported each other, our time as a couple gradually came to an end but for the most part of 5 years he was everything I had needed, he was The Perfect Package so to speak.

So I like to think that yes, I will meet someone else who will tick all the boxes, and that when we're together we don't need to look elsewhere to be satisfied.

Because that's how I see polygamy, if my boyfriend came to me and said, "I need to look elsewhere to be fully satisfied" I would feel that I wasn't enough for him, and that I had somehow failed. I know a few of you have said that it's not realistic to have one person to do everything, but it keeps coming down to it has worked for me before, it has worked for many happy couples I know who have been together for years, it will work for me again.

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Postby AngryRobot » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:17 pm UTC

Me and roffle are in the same boat floating out to sea and noone brought monopoly to play, only headache without any of the dice in the bubble.

I know im loved by family and friends but i need that other love and i try and do things about my situation but nothing is ever resolved, i try to change my current state but all i ever get is more problems im optimistic and often wear a smile, im open and friendly and help others yet i still cant find anyone, i know im young but the last time i even had a date was over 1 and a half years ago
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Postby VannA » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:20 pm UTC

Coruscate wrote:Because that's how I see polygamy, if my boyfriend came to me and said, "I need to look elsewhere to be fully satisfied" I would feel that I wasn't enough for him, and that I had somehow failed.


Let me put that in my insecurities bag.


My wife shares my interests in gothic fantasy, in comics, in gaming, some of interests in fiction.

My.. psuedo-ex-partner (long story) shared my interests in some sports, in history, art, philosophy, culture in general, as well as my taste in the esoteric.

Neither of them (And this is not a slagging, I don't think I'm normal in this regard) satifsy my libido, or are comfortable with some of the things I may find appealing. But sex isn't the point, and in the last relationship I had (The pseudo-ex-partner above) it wasn't there are all.
She did share my bed 2-3 nights a week, and my life, for almost a year. I miss her, but it wasn't working out.

I going to devote some more of my time to getting fit again, because thats something I'd like to do to be a little more secure in myself.

And, ultimately, its security in yourself that dictates the sucess, or lack thereof, of your relationships.
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Postby AngryRobot » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:24 pm UTC

well as you can prob see from my avatar, im screwed... plain and simple but not in the literal sense either
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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:26 pm UTC

I am not pushing to say that polyamory is the only way or even the best way. What I was pushing for was acknowledgement that it can be the best way for some people, and that the current western tradition of seeing it as strange or morally bad is something that should be removed.

I pointed out earlier that while I believe polyamory is probably the best way for me, and I will accept my girlfriend if she needs it to be that way I am actually pretty monogamous in practice.

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Postby AngryRobot » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:34 pm UTC

I dunno i can see why it might be good for some but i dunno after them bein with someone else i dunno if i would feel truily comfortable with them after that. maybe im just closed minded or because i have been cheated on in the past or maybe i am insecure in myself i dunno but to me i couldnt live with that arrangement, but i dont have anything against others doing it if it works for them same stance i have on drinking and smoking.

Fun fact: saliva transferred from one to another while kissing generally stays in your mouth for 3 months.
I thought it was weird/hard to believe
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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:40 pm UTC

VannA wrote:I can't answer that.

You've already indicated your not happy.

Yet, I must say, you seem to take the attitude that you cannot fix the fact you are unhappy, and that somebody will come along that will make you happy.

You fit all the right little cookiecutter bits for clinical depression, you know.

You think you look crap, but that shot you posted was good. If I looked like that, I'd be a lot happier. I'm carrying way too much excess baggage.

I *know* I'm loved. The fact that my wife is free to sleep with other people, or to form equally loving relationships with them, doesn't deter from the fact she loves me.


Well, unhappyness is a way of life in my family, so that's fine, I guess.

But actually, I don't think somebody is going to come along and fix me, because that's impossible. The only one who can "fix" me, is me, and I try to do that every day. Just because I like to whine a little, doesn't mean that I'm clinically depressed. I know very well what depression is, I've studied it at uni, and I know all the symptoms. I will admit that I have a plethora of neuroses, though.

Funny, it all boils down to "less QQ more pewpew".

And it also boils down to the fact that I can't understand how someone could love me, and some other guy, at the same time. She would love me less, be less loyal, and I could never feel secure about her feelings... So I guess polyamory is just for certain types of people, then. It certainly isn't for me.
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Postby corcorigan » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:48 pm UTC

I tend view myself and any girlfriend as a team rather than just as fuckbuddies, so cheating seems a little alien.

I just couldn't see an open relationship as anything but friendship with advantages...

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Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:01 pm UTC

But what seperates a relationship from a friendship? Any meaningful relationship I have had has been with someone I am best friends with, so the only difference is that we have been having sex.

Why is having sex a big sacred thing that seperates a friendship from a relationship? By saying that a monogamous relationship is the only way to really be in love (Not that any of you are necessarily saying that) then you are saying that it is impossible to love more than one perosn at a time, and really that once you have a relationship there is no real necessity to having friends, because this person fulfils all your emotional needs.

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Postby Roffle » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:10 pm UTC

Which is probably why guys tend to neglect friendships completely once they're in a serious relationship. I'm guilty of doing that. I might do it again, if I turn out to be stupid enough. And I paid for it.

But no, you shouldn't load all your needs on one person, and that's not what relationships are about, either. A partner loyally cares for your physical and emotional needs, because they want to, and they expect that same care and loyalty in return. I think that makes sense. Sharing that out among several people... Well, I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I'm saying that in nature, a stable, two-person relationship is what has been natural and preferred among most societies in ages past. And I can't imagine myself loving more than one person anyway.

But hey, if it works for you, by all means. It just would never work for me.
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Postby Belial » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:53 pm UTC

Jesster wrote:But what seperates a relationship from a friendship? Any meaningful relationship I have had has been with someone I am best friends with, so the only difference is that we have been having sex.

Why is having sex a big sacred thing that seperates a friendship from a relationship? By saying that a monogamous relationship is the only way to really be in love (Not that any of you are necessarily saying that) then you are saying that it is impossible to love more than one perosn at a time, and really that once you have a relationship there is no real necessity to having friends, because this person fulfils all your emotional needs.


And I think that's the fundamental disconnect. The people who are opposed to the idea, tend to think there's some third element aside from friendship and sex that is "romantic love".

Who knows, maybe they're right. But I seem to get by with a whole lot of "Friend love" and also sex.

I do enjoy the sex.

Anyway, I tend to agree with you on the polyamory thing....in theory. I don't know how I'd actually react if Girl went off and found another boyfriend in-addition-to, emotions being unpredictable things and me not being the most secure person ever born. I think, all of that aside, it'd have to be someone I was on pretty good terms with, if only because he'd probably be in my house a lot.
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Postby space_raptor » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:37 pm UTC

Human relationships can be very complicated. I think honest communication is very important. That way people with Roffle-type expectations don't date people with Jesster-type expectations and nobody gets hurt. Nothing wrong with either way, but humanity is one big blurry mosaic of opinions and feelings when it comes to relationships. Caution should be taken.

I have been in both types of relationships. I started my current relationship as the "other guy"(well, more like second guy), and we have moved on to be monogamous. We hang out with the first guy occasionally, and he's cool, but I don't think he and I will ever be friends.

I am a pretty adaptable guy, which is why I think either way works for me. If a girl wants to be monogamous, I will probably be fine with that. If she doesn't, I can deal with that as well. Similar to Jesster, it is very unlikely that I'm going to find somebody else, but hey, it could happen. Of course, then that girl would have to be fine with polyamory too, and then you wouldn't have a lot of free time, and on and on. Sounds like an Avril Lavigne song.

I think that there is a line to be drawn here though. I disagree with the idea that a couple can go from "making out in a bar" stage to "monogamous relationship" stage in a few days. I see that a lot, especially with the younger crowd, and it's a little too fast. I think it makes a lot more sense to be dating a few people when you're not really serious with anyone. Everybody is in such a hurry to get to some kind of long-term commitment type thing. I don't think being a player is a good idea, but you don't have to jump the gun.

I am impressed with the people I meet who are like Vanna, who are just that much more open to things. Rationally, I understand it, and it's a cool idea. Emotionally I just don't know how I would handle it.

Of course, we are very much in love, and a week ago apparently I set a record for "most orgasms in a 24 hour period"*, so looks like multiple partners won't be an issue anytime soon.


* I just had to tell somebody this, and since you guys are on the internet, I figure I can tell you. My roommates would probably consider it "too much information", but I had to tell somebody because DAMN, I'm good. Sorry if it seems like bragging, but well, I kinda am. Bragging, that is.:D

Sorry, but how am I supposed to keep that to myself?:D
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