What-If 0020: "Diamond"

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Istaro
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby Istaro » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:06 am UTC

Oops, cat stepped on my keyboard again and I added a bunch more 9s.


Hey, it added a 5 and a 1 too! Mighty convenient, I'll say.

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby Angelastic » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:08 am UTC

Jay Low wrote:
At this speed, every carbon molecule carries 25 TeV of energy, c.omparable to particles in the beam of the Large Hadron Collider.


This isn't quite right. The maximal energy of the LHC is 14 TeV for both beams, so 7 TeV per beam. And not per particle! Those have less.

I was wondering if 25 TeV per carbon molecule meant about 2.08 TeV per nucleon, which is comparable to 2.76 TeV per nucleon for lead ions in the LHC (I don't know if they've accelerated carbon ions in the LHC, but that kind of energy is way overkill if you want to treat cancer with them.) But I'm not a physicist so I probably don't know what I'm talking about (it's true about the cancer thing though, you only need hundreds of MeV for that. A much smaller, slower diamond meteorite in just the right place and you might get lucky.)

Edit: or it could be the current 4TeV protons, but I guess it depends what you mean by 'comparable' :)
Last edited by Angelastic on Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:40 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby arthurd006_5 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:28 am UTC

... but ... why they haven’t slowed down more before they got here—is something of a mystery.


X-rays are subject to the Bragg Peak, where they dump most of their energy right at the end of their journey. That's one of the reasons you can x-ray someone (mostly) without hurting them. Does it apply to cosmic rays too?

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby Xenomortis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:34 am UTC

It applies to anything ionising really.
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby J. Curwen » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:52 am UTC

Istaro wrote:
Oops, cat stepped on my keyboard again and I added a bunch more 9s.


Hey, it added a 5 and a 1 too! Mighty convenient, I'll say.


Quite sure he meant his leopard.
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby NeilRashbrook » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:40 am UTC

I don't get the bit about the Lorentz contraction; the formula is γ = 1/√(1-β²) (sorry I couldn't work out how to use BBCode math) which for β = 0.99 is only about 7 (so the diamond's length works out to be 14' 1.28").

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:02 pm UTC

A disk 100ft in diameter and only 14ft thick sounds reasonably pancake-like to me.
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby mathmannix » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:37 pm UTC

J. Curwen wrote:
Istaro wrote:
Oops, cat stepped on my keyboard again and I added a bunch more 9s.


Hey, it added a 5 and a 1 too! Mighty convenient, I'll say.


Quite sure he meant his leopard.


or the bobcat that he got in the office chair box...
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby mcdigman » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:01 pm UTC

WIMP wrote:
mcdigman wrote: Now that I think about it, 100 ft is less than the Schwarzchild of the sun, so would this be a black hole?


No, because in its rest frame the diamond still just weighs as much as it did before. By this argument, you could make absolutely anything into a black hole by moving fast enough relative to it, until its kinetic energy became large enough.


Ok, I just didn't know how that worked-I have not yet learned how things work regarding relativity and mass/gravity, that being I understand somewhat harder than the special case where we ignore gravity.

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby AnotherAngle » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:25 pm UTC

The 64000 dollar question is whether Mark LeClair made something like this actually happen, but on a much smaller scale (fortunately).

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby charonme » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:27 am UTC

This is the first time I heard about the ohmygod particle, thanks! Anyway, how did they even detect it? And what happens when it hits a person?

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby peewee_RotA » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:24 am UTC

WanderingLinguist wrote:
peewee_RotA wrote:A baseball traveling at 0.9c fuses with air molecules. A 100 foot wide diamond traveling at 0.99c has no bonds and the particles are moving to fast to fuse with air molecules.

I honestly don't care enough to research this any further. I'm just saying that they seem to be contradictory.


He doesn't say it has no bonds; he says the bonds don't matter at that speed.

Also, I'm no expert, but I think there's a big difference between 0.9c and 0.99c.



The difference between the two numbers is roughly 10%, so the concept of it being a "big difference" is purely a matter of interpretation. The difference between 0.1c and 0.2c is a big difference too. Relatively the difference between 0c and 0.1c is infinitely bigger than the other two examples.

All that aside here's the problem if there is a magic number between 0.9c and 0.99c that makes the bond between atoms suddenly no longer be relevant, then that's a pretty awesome thing to talk about. That's much more fascinating than the calculation for how far a speeding object penetrates. (although it has less potential for innuendos). So if that magic number exists, and that magic number is between 0.9c and 0.99c, then why wasn't it mentioned in either article?
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:48 am UTC

peewee_RotA wrote:All that aside here's the problem if there is a magic number between 0.9c and 0.99c that makes the bond between atoms suddenly no longer be relevant, then that's a pretty awesome thing to talk about. That's much more fascinating than the calculation for how far a speeding object penetrates. (although it has less potential for innuendos). So if that magic number exists, and that magic number is between 0.9c and 0.99c, then why wasn't it mentioned in either article?


I believe it's whatever speed makes the average kinetic energy per particle equal to the potential energy of the bonds holding the particles together...


As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, when comparing relativistic speeds, rather than looking at v1 and v2 directly, you want to compare the associated Lorentz factors (1/(sqrt(1-(v/c)2))) which is 5.26 2.3 when v=.9c and 50.3 7.1 when v=.99c (compare to 1.01 when v=.1c, 1.04 1.02 when v=.2c and 1.00 when v=0) - if you're thinking relativistically, the difference between .9c and .99c is much more significant than between .1c and either .2c or 0
Last edited by rmsgrey on Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:46 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:53 pm UTC

Looks like you didn't actually take the square root there.
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby david_h » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:21 pm UTC

Is it just me, or is the scale a bit off on Randall's illustrations?

When it hits the ground, two minutes after it was released, it makes a crater 300 meters across—the size of a school, shattering into fragments in the process.
Image


That dinosaur's about 100m long!

At 11 kilometers per second, the brief descent would be visible as a fireball. The energy of the impact would be comparable to a small atomic bomb, and the crater it would create would be a kilometer across—a little smaller than Meteor Crater in Arizona.
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I make that Statue of Liberty about 160m tall - 3.5x the height of the real one.

And that's an Ent, right? :|

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:47 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Looks like you didn't actually take the square root there.


...

fixed.

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:51 pm UTC

david_h wrote:
At 11 kilometers per second, the brief descent would be visible as a fireball. The energy of the impact would be comparable to a small atomic bomb, and the crater it would create would be a kilometer across—a little smaller than Meteor Crater in Arizona.
Image

And that's an Ent, right? :|

David


More likely one of the statues of the Argonath:

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby PolakoVoador » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:52 pm UTC

david_h wrote:And that's an Ent, right? :| David


EDIT: Ninja'd by less than 1 minute

NO! That is one of the Argonaths, those huge statues on the Anduin River:

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby david_h » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:37 pm UTC

Hmm, okay, looked more like a half-melted snowman to me.

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby adavies42 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:30 pm UTC

The 72-kilometer-per-second diamond sphere blasts out a crater over two kilometers across, with an energy release comparable to that of the biggest fusion bombs.

What 72-kilometer-per-second diamond sphere? That paragraph is about a speed of 11 km/s, and it's the only place in the article the number 72 appears. Is this a typo?

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby adavies42 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:32 pm UTC

Anybody have any luck finding a full-text version of "The nuclear and aerial dynamics of the Tunguska Event"?

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby mathmannix » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:44 pm UTC

adavies42 wrote:Anybody have any luck finding a full-text version of "The nuclear and aerial dynamics of the Tunguska Event"?


here.
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby SerialTroll » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:35 pm UTC

adavies42 wrote:Anybody have any luck finding a full-text version of "The nuclear and aerial dynamics of the Tunguska Event"?


Assuming this is the full text, it would be the first hit on Google.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... arAUg4298A

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby ijuin » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:25 am UTC

adavies42 wrote:
The 72-kilometer-per-second diamond sphere blasts out a crater over two kilometers across, with an energy release comparable to that of the biggest fusion bombs.

What 72-kilometer-per-second diamond sphere? That paragraph is about a speed of 11 km/s, and it's the only place in the article the number 72 appears. Is this a typo?


I think that there is a paragraph missing in the article. The 72 km/s speed would be for a scenario where the diamond is approaching Earth at just below solar escape velocity.

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:37 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:
adavies42 wrote:
The 72-kilometer-per-second diamond sphere blasts out a crater over two kilometers across, with an energy release comparable to that of the biggest fusion bombs.

What 72-kilometer-per-second diamond sphere? That paragraph is about a speed of 11 km/s, and it's the only place in the article the number 72 appears. Is this a typo?


I think that there is a paragraph missing in the article. The 72 km/s speed would be for a scenario where the diamond is approaching Earth at just below solar escape velocity.


Yeah, it all makes sense if you assume there's an invisible bold line saying "72 kilometers per second:" just below the image with the statues.

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby Diadem » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:13 pm UTC

WIMP wrote:
mcdigman wrote: Now that I think about it, 100 ft is less than the Schwarzchild of the sun, so would this be a black hole?


No, because in its rest frame the diamond still just weighs as much as it did before. By this argument, you could make absolutely anything into a black hole by moving fast enough relative to it, until its kinetic energy became large enough.

It would become a black hole as soon as it interacted with something though. Well, if the interaction is violent enough to release a significant amount of the kinetic energy.
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:38 pm UTC

Which a collision with Earth wouldn't be, since at that speed it makes too insignificant a target.
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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby WIMP » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:27 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
WIMP wrote:
mcdigman wrote: Now that I think about it, 100 ft is less than the Schwarzchild of the sun, so would this be a black hole?


No, because in its rest frame the diamond still just weighs as much as it did before. By this argument, you could make absolutely anything into a black hole by moving fast enough relative to it, until its kinetic energy became large enough.

It would become a black hole as soon as it interacted with something though. Well, if the interaction is violent enough to release a significant amount of the kinetic energy.


Sure, if you get the kinetic energy of two rocks up high enough, you can smack them together and the CM frame energy will exceed that necessary to make a black hole. Kinda an exotic way to make one that never occurs in Nature (nothing macroscopic ever reaches the necessary ultra relativistic speeds--the violent process that accelerated the object would necessarily also rip it to shreds), but it's possible in principle.

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Re: What-If 0020: Diamond

Postby cmsg » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:51 am UTC

Can anybody tell me whether I'm working on the right lines here? Trying to determine, given the massive energies and therefore reduced cross-sections involved, the order of magnitude number of actual particle-particle interactions that happen as the meteorite goes through. If I am right, how fast must the meteorite be going before it passes through the Earth unnoticed, and life goes on?

So we're into DIS territory here. at these energies, the cross-section for hot quark-on-quark action is about 10^-4 pb. Probability of one layer of carbon atoms interacting with one layer of atoms in the crust is about

p (one layer) = (number of quarks in nucleus)^2 * quark-quark cross section / atomic cross-section
= 36^2 x 10^-4 x 10^-12 * 10^-28 / 10^20
= 10^-21.

Each layer of atoms in the meteorite collides with around 10^18 atoms of Earth. 10^11 layers of atoms in meteorite, so expect 10^(18+11-21)=10^8 interactions, each with a COM energy of around 20 J.

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Re: What-If 0020: "Diamond"

Postby Nnelg » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:16 pm UTC

Hm...


Something I just realized:

At these insanely high momentums, we might actually see some weird macroscopic quantum mechanical effects begin to manifest themselves and interfere with the ideal relativistic solutions Munroe got. Specifically, I'm thinking of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

I calculated the momentum of the final meteor to be ~6.7*10^27 kg m/s. I'm no expert, but that makes me wonder if we can actually be certain that the meteor hits the Earth at all. But that would imply some things, and I'm not sure if anyone really knows what.


Maybe humanity would finally be able to experience a subatomic interaction from the inside... :P



PS: I just noticed the date. Can it really be called thread necromancy if the thread was still on the first page, though?
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Re: What-If 0020: "Diamond"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:47 pm UTC

Uncertainty has nothing to do with it. Position only becomes uncertain when our knowledge of momentum becomes very very *precise*. Knowing only that momentum gets very very *large* doesn't really matter.
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Re: What-If 0020: "Diamond"

Postby Flumble » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:00 pm UTC

Moreover it wouldn't be a relative precision (e.g. 8 digits for the one leading to 2 digits for the other) but rather an absolute precision on a quantum-mechanical scale.

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Re: What-If 0020: "Diamond"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:01 am UTC

Indeed. If the uncertainty in that momentum figure is 10^25 kg m/s, then the uncertainty principle allows for position certainty down to 10^-60 meters, which is a lot smaller than the Planck length.
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Re: What-If 0020: "Diamond"

Postby Nnelg » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:08 am UTC

Flumble wrote:Moreover it wouldn't be a relative precision (e.g. 8 digits for the one leading to 2 digits for the other) but rather an absolute precision on a quantum-mechanical scale.

Oh, that would explain why I was thinking that.
keithl wrote:As a rule of thumb, it is imprudent to pass over speed bumps faster than orbital velocity.

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Re: What-If 0020: "Diamond"

Postby Homicidal Renegade » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:26 pm UTC

The YouTube channel "Ridddle" has copied this pretty much paragraph for paragraph to the acquisition of over 7 million views.

I don't know if it's authorised or a total rip off but I thought you should be aware.

I initially tried to post this with a link to the video itself but a moderator disapproved and blocked the post.

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Re: What-If 0020: "Diamond"

Postby edo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:29 pm UTC

Homicidal Renegade wrote:The YouTube channel "Ridddle" has copied this pretty much paragraph for paragraph to the acquisition of over 7 million views.

I don't know if it's authorised or a total rip off but I thought you should be aware.

I initially tried to post this with a link to the video itself but a moderator disapproved and blocked the post.


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